You wrote: Gary.....if I call my mom and tell her I love her and I cry with her over the phone about things, then tell her again I love her so much.......she feels loved. She hears it in my voice and fells it in her emotions.
I can tell her all day long on the phone and tell her I ate lunch for her so she doesn't need to worry about eatin lunch....and she'll still feel hungary if she doesn't eat. The call was a loving action. If you called and hurt her with the call but still called it love, it would not be love. It would still be a call, but not a loving call.
If you DO a loving thing, it's a loving thing. Even if you call it hate, or neutrality, or call it a tuna fish sandwich, it's still a loving thing. That's the gist of my thesis.
Do you think you just made a good comparison?Yes! Very good.
Shunning and Friendship...two different things.
by gumby 47 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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garybuss
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gumby
Gary.....you and I seeing things a bit different on this one, but maybe perhaps because were seeing it at different angles
If you called and hurt her with the call but still called it love, it would not be love.
If my wife stomps in the house after working she's in the yard and I'm on my butt on the couch and she comes in and says....I'm sick of this....your turning into a lazy slob who don't do squat around here anymore"!!!
..............and she hurts my feelings.......does this mean my wife doesn't love me anymore? She hurt me.
Ok.....give me hell...I can take it Gary
Gumby
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upside/down
I know a man who loves his wife and kids sooo much that he beats them regularly....because he "loves" them...it's for their own good....And occasionally he'll even tearily apologize for "loving" them so much.
Gawd bless his "loving" worthless ass!
u/d
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carla
When I saw a disfellowshipped person coming to the assembly or hall and this one looked like they were hurt but really trying to "get back in", I wanted to go hug them and welcome them, thank them for coming and trying so hard......but I couldn't.-----------------Yes you could. You made a choice not to. You and all other jw's make a conscience decision to care more for your own standing in the cong and loyalty to a publshing company. Sorry that sounds harsh, but that's the way I see it. At what point do we distinguish between jw's being victims or willing victims? Mind control is stong indeed especially when they are offering eternal life through them. Part of the reason non jw's find it all so distasteful is the fact that jw's make a claim of being loving, the hypocricy is overwhelming. Can a mother love her child more when she lets that child die at the altar of a corporation? I say no, the mother cares more for her own standing within the cong and what mere men have told her. She has not taken the time to truly find what God wants, which is mercy before sacrifice. Sacrificing a child on the altar of the wt is not loving. Nor is treating your family as dead. If God has indeed written things upon our hearts, should we not listen? The wt says no. Listen to us. I believe being a member of jw's does something to a persons capacity to love. Somehow it changes. I only know what I see in my own home,(and on the boards) the changes that have occured. You see I have seen someone change drastically from a non jw to a jw. Love should not be conditional. You may not approve of what a loved one does but they are still loved. To simply say I love you but will never talk to you again or see you is not love at all. It gives the word 'love' no meaning. Love should not be 'my terms only' or 'my way or the highway'. Simply more tryanny that will only result in resentment at some point. Jw's do have choice to love or not. They choose not to. They choose to build up a wall to protect their organization from some imaginary evil. Truth invites scrutiny, love, and examination. Truth has no fear. What is difficult for us non jw's involved with jw's is to realize they choose an organization over us. So we try to rationalize away the reasons jw's do this. Deep down they lose part of their humanity, the capacity to love.
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Jamelle
I have something to offer on this topic. I do not believe that my parents have stopped "loving" me - at least, I don't think they would feel that in their own minds.
I know that they have been brainwashed and that they believe that what they are doing by shunning me is right. I know that they hope and pray that I will come back to the JWs and that everything will be alright somehow.
But in my opinion, limited as it may be, what they profess to feel for me is not love as I would have it. It is a small, imprisoned thing, dying for lack of light. It is twisted and it is very, very sad.
And yes, it's conditional. Comparing the love between a married couple and between a parent and a child is not really accurate - at least I've never felt that way. There should be a bond between mother and child, or father and child, that is stronger and deeper than any other.
Maybe I'm naive or expecting too much. Maybe I'm just still angry at my own parents for never figuring out how they had been suckered by the JW organization.
Enough about that - as far as anything outside parent/child relationships goes in the JW congregation, I do not believe that many JWs feel real love or real loss when someone they know is Df'd.
JWs are trained to love the organization above all else - family love makes its presence know because that's hardwired into most of us as humans - and the Society hasn't been able to undo our "unwanted" genectic traits, at least not yet.
I would say, allowing for exceptions - because they are always there, most JWs never understand what true love and/or friendship is. That is why they are able to stomach the practice of shunning.
Whatever lies you are told about shunning, whatever lies you tell yourself, it is wrong. It's a tool of control and people that practice it are allowing themselves to be used as the hammer.
I used to be very angry when discussing this topic, and although I can still be sometimes, mostly I feel very, very sorry for those people who live a life where shunning is considered normal and healthy.
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gumby
U/D...I see your point too. A sick mind at work. But....are witnesses who shun THIS sick?
Carla,
When I saw a disfellowshipped person coming to the assembly or hall and this one looked like they were hurt but really trying to "get back in", I wanted to go hug them and welcome them, thank them for coming and trying so hard......but I couldn't.-----------------
Yes you could. You made a choice not to. You and all other jw's make a conscience decision to care more for your own standing in the cong and loyalty to a publshing company.
You left out one really big thing. Not ALL witnesses shun to make a good appearence for others.....though this is a factor.
I did it because I believed it was the right thing to do in gods eyes and that this was the best for the person being shunned......as I explained already in a post further back. Many other dubs shun for this reason. They shun one when nobody else is around but them and a Dfed person.....with no one to show off to.
Gumby
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looking_glass
I have not been shunned by my family. They are a little touched in the head, so they don't fit in with most JWs and their beliefs. However, I was shunned by one of my closest friends. Initially it was upsetting. However, I realized that she was doing what she thought was best for me. In the end all it did was end the friendship. When I heard she had cancer, I sent her a card, wishing her well. I continued to hear about her thru the grape vine. From what I understand she is in remission. Just the same as she has to live her life and what she feels is right. I have to live mine. I feel it is important for me to send out good vibes (Karma and all). Also, feel that for those who have shunned me (and she is the only one I can think of), it is her loss. Only YOU can allow someone to have power over you. Also, JWs are not the only people who practice this policy. I have seen it in any other fundamentalist religions as well. Organized religion can be a catalyst for good or for evil.
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Bumble Bee
Maybe they still love you - but is that the kind of love you want?
Take a case of two brothers. Both were raised JW. One left as soon as he was able to and was never baptized. The second younger brother stayed, was baptized, aux pioneered etc. Both brothers have gotten into some trouble over the years. Brother #1 has been in and out of jail, done drugs, is an alcoholic, beats his girlfriend, distroys public property, you get the picture.
Brother #2 gets into some trouble, sins and confessed to the elders and was DF'd. Now this brother has done nothing legally wrong (not like his older brother), readily admitted what he did (which did not hurt his family or anybody else) and if he did not confess, nobody would have known what he did.
Parents are able to go out of their way to help brother #1, visit him in jail, give him money, provide him a place to stay, offer support.
Parents are not able to help brother #2 in any way because he's DF'd.
The parents say they love both their children, but because #2 is DF'd they have to follow some stupid man made rule that says they cannot have any contact with their second son. What kind of love is that?
When I saw a friend that was DF'd - I still went up to him and said Hi. When my aunt and cousin were df'd I did not shun them. I did not shun my brother. I had a good friend as a teen, she was df'd and her parents moved her out of province. I still ask about her even though her parents won't discuss her, I let them know that I still think about her and care for her. It's a choice we have to make do we want to be loyal to an "organization" or to those we love?
BB
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garybuss
You wrote: does this mean my wife doesn't love me anymore?
No, of course not. I'm not gonna come down on ya:-) You just don't know what love is. You have love confused with just about everything. You have lots of company.
Love IS NOT loyalty or like or lust. Love is action, behavior. Life is walking, love is a step.
If your wife didn't make dinner tonight, would you think she will NEVER make dinner again? Do you think" Tonight she didn't FEED me . . . that means she will never FEED me again. Love is not one BIG thing, it's a series of little things. It can be a one time thing.
If you're nice to a strange child, that's love.
A long term loving personal relationship is not very inconsistent. Abuse is NEVER love. Hitting is never love. Shunning is never love. A psychotic motive for bad behavior is never love.
This is one reason so many people have such a hard time finding love. They don't know what it is. -
KW13
Well my mum kicked me out, we didn't speak for ages and still...she loved me. She kicked me out to stop me being a JW
The shunning e.t.c is in hope to bring ya back, if you became a witness again they'd be all over ya.