OK believers, time to put up or shut up... (page 8)

gold_morning

Do I dare comment. Though you say you are not angry... you sure do sound angry to me. At the very least fustrated.

Freedom, is really the basic source of all evil, and yet, it is the most treasured value of God and man.

Since God created everything, and said it is very good, even Satan was made good. God created no creatures that were evil. If God had made Satan evil then God would be the one responsible for the evil in the universe, but God made everything good.

How then could evil get started in a good universe where all creatures and all things were good? It came in by way of God's greatest gift to His creatures. It was the gift of freedom.

God could have prevented evil very simply by withholding the gift of freedom. God had the choice of making a world where no evil could exist, but He didn't do it. We would have been nothing more than the computerized Matrix world.

It means everything to God to have free willed beings to relate to. We are not machines, but real persons who are able to fellowship with Him. Love and obedience is priceless, because they are freely given, and not the automatic response due to programing.

God knew that free choice would bring evil in the picture. For freedom to be real there must be allowance for choice. There is no way to have freedom and avoid the possibility of evil. Satan was made with the same freedom to chose good or evil. What is evil? Since God is the creator of all, and God is good, evil is any use of freedom which is contrary to God's will, and what He would have His creatures choose. When any free willed being chooses to do what God would not have programed them to do, had He made them robots, that is evil. He knew this would happen and that is why he put His plan of redemption thru Jesus into place before the foundings of the earth.

Can I ask why people believing in the grace of God by accepting Jesus gets you so upset? Curious.

gold_morning

sonnyboy

The reason why God is permitting suffering and evil in the world at this time is basically to teach mankind a great lesson. That is that we cannot live without him and his rulership over us. Becuase we were never made to live independently of God.

So, if God exists, he's teaching us the lesson that we need his protection to save us from his own creations? If the Bible is true, ALL things exist because of God. And if God is perfect, he wouldn't have created imperfect beings by accident. Allegedly, Satan is in control of 'worldly' governments, therefore these governments fail. Well get rid of the damn problem and THEN see what we can do.

If God wanted to create a flawless world with flawless beings, he could have, right? He gave us free will for the drama of it all. He allows evil to invoke the huge reality show that we call planet Earth. Apparently he wants the ego boost that comes with appreciation, otherwise he would have created us with the ability to live independently of him. He created us to fail without him? Nice. God wants to feel needed? He wants my appreciation? Come down and have dinner with me once in a while. Have a conversation with me. Let's go to the beach. Hiding in silence while allowing good people to suffer doesn't sound like the best way to get what he's looking for. Simply bringing us forth into a world of chaos without so much as a peep isn't enough.

All that aside, *why* would he need to teach us such a lesson on such a grand scale for so many years? Couldn't he be merciful and teach us in ways that aren't so violent and heinous? Why would he allow the child of one of his faithful followers, who already knows or thinks that he needs God to survive, to die of leukemia? He needs to learn his lesson twice? What lesson was he teaching Job when he allowed Satan to kill his 10 children? That story shows that God allows suffering for at least one reason. He allows suffering on a bet. It's right there in black and white; anything else is speculation.

This whole lesson would be like a human parent sending his child into the forest with an instruction manual for the rest of his life because he took a penny from the coin jar, knowing it was against the rules. If little Timmy follows the manual and survives, good for him. He trusts his parents instructions even though they sent him out among the wolves. If he doesn't follow the manual and starves to death or gets eaten by a bear, I guess he learned his lesson. But God takes it one step further. Not only do you suffer and die in this world, regardless of how loyal and appreciative you may be, but he brings you back to life and kills you again for not following his instructions.

Sounds like love to me...

If all of this is true, allowing suffering sounds more like a bet with Satan than teaching us anything.

osmosis

Ahh the evil clown throws a grenade.. many people take the bait, a good time is had by some..

Pretty much anything I might have said has already been said, so I'm reduced to offering a few pithy truisms I've learned in my short life.

- People don't want to believe, they need to believe.

- People's beliefs are very personal to them; you cannot attack a person's beliefs without attacking them, in their eyes.

- The same logic that applies in other areas of the psyche do not apply to beliefs.

- Pastafarianism is the one and only true religion.

JamesThomas

Can I ask why people believing in the grace of God by accepting Jesus gets you so upset? Curious.

gold_morning, I'm not answering for Gregor, just curious. If you had the power of grace, would you bestow it only on those who accepted and honored you, or would you give it equally and freely to all, no matter?

j

cabasilas

Some have brought up the idea of judgement.

I found a lot to think about in the following essay entitled "The River of Fire":

http://www.philthompson.net/pages/library/riveroffire.html

While I disagree with some of its caricatures of Western Christian theology...even though I'm an Eastern Christian myself...I found some of the thoughts in the article extremely well made. Personally, I believe that some of the ideas in it can be adapted to other Christian theologies than just the author's.

Peace,

Cabasilas

beksbks

Love and obedience is priceless, because they are freely given, and not the automatic response due to programing.

Who equates love with obediance?? Or the demand of it?

Grace: Unmerited divine assistance.

So, if unmerited, acceptance of jesus should not be a prerequisite?

Gregor

Thank you gold_morning. If you want to say I sound angry go right ahead, that has nothing to do with the discussion. Your the one on the defensive. Your essay doesn't contain any substance or fact or logic or anything but good 'ol religous dogma, which, by God, you have every right to believe. I've heard and read it all before, even spouted it myself. It doesn't make you a bad person, just wishful and gullible like millions of others. Twisting your common sense into a pretzel is your right. If in some way this discussion has made you feel that your cherished beliefs are threatened, I guess I'll have to blame it on 35 years of Watchtower poo poo.

Best to you.

Gregor

Osmosis

This being April 27, after sundown we had our communion meal of spaghetti, garlic bread, green salad and red wine. We are of the only true Pastafarian sect that grates parmesian on our spaghetti. We used to have some friends that mixed the meat sauce into the entire pot of noodles instead of letting each person ladle it on their serving individually. We don't talk to them or their kind anymore. May they burn forever in a big pot of boiling water.

corproal

Gregor,

Whatever dude .No one needs to provide an answer to you.You;,re going to chosse to believe as you believe no matter how much evidence is provided,so why cast pearls before swine?

Highlander

After all, you say we have no proof of what we believe but for you non-believers, you have no proof either!

Yep, my thoughts exactly. To the often asked question of how did life originate. Simply put, I don't know and neither do you. Quite frankly I don't believe we will ever know for certain.

OK believers, time to put up or shut up...

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