by Gregor 238 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I've heard it before and I can never quite understand the talk by christians about keeping their beliefs to themselves. Doesn't that go against the main thing christianity uses to promote itself. Isn't that one of the main duties of a christian?
That's why it's been described as a meme.
Auldsoul,
Thank you for your comments. I can accept what you wrote so far, but...
it is unfair to assume that the Bible is the end-all, be-all storehouse of human knowledge and wisdom gifted to us by God.
OK, so where else do I find such "wisdom of God"? Who do I trust, and why? Joe Next-Door-Neighbor seems like a really nice guy, but maybe he tortures puppies in his basement. Jane Doe writes a really good book, but 5 years later she recants everything and becomes a serial bank robber.
Bible itself encourages reliance on the spirit as a teacher
God has never spoken to me. I have had no mystical, supernatural, unexplainable occurences that "seem to be" the voice of God / holy spirit, trying to get thru to me. I have had no personal revelation from God--I've asked for it, and it doesn't come. I read of others' experiences, others who were in the same position as me but who had some sort of "revelation" or "supernatural experience" or "calling" or whatever, and I think "if that were to happen to me, I'd be a believer too". But it hasn't happened to me, it seems that it has not happened for millions or billions of others. Is God really that picky?
There is one thing that we 'christians' may well be guilty of and that is we are willing to believe in the old stories but we don't believe enough to write our own. Enough babble what am I on about. If we had enough faith to actually do the things that we believe (especially including miracles) that would be proof as has been demanded from us. Would any 'true believer' deny that Peter walked on water but would any beliver have the so much talked about faith to preach by example rather than simply with words?
Where is this coming from ? Well as I study my own beliefs and find them woefully deficient to face up to the task thus posed by this topics post I realise that it is not enough to simply confess a belief for me (sorry any born agains..:) it seems clear that actions and results beat words. What then is the problem , for me, when it comes to the supposed evidences that my belief would require? I think it is this. I find myself guilty of paying lip service to Christianity , walking the walk, keeping my nose clean etc.. but never actually being what I believe. There is that moment of great stupidity and magnificence that charaterizes Peter stepping out onto the water. I haven't really tried to do what I believe because maybe deep down I think I really am just going to sink and the world will roll up its spliff and laugh itself silly.
What we - I - need is water walkers - bandying words is much less effective. I want restored limbs not pretend walking cripples - I want what the old and new testament records , real interactions with God that don't smack of coincidence and hearsay. I acknowledge that I am not such a man as I currently stand and therefore am found wanting when asked for evidence.
"You know what really gets to me these days? It's the responses generated on this thread like this by believers.
It reminds me of a little kid who when asked a question answers "Because" and then when asked "Because why?" answers back with "Because".
I mentioned it earlier, if one of you believers started a thread like this directed at non-believers, you would not get these childish crybaby responses. If you doubt that, give it a"
It's kind of like the argument you non-believers give when asked how do you know there was a big-bang.Its not provable because you weren't there.Now you're upset because of the responses you get move onto to another web-site.
No one has to give you or Gregor a response to your answers because no matter what evidence that is provided you're going going to belive what you want.You also mention you're tired of believers throwing there beliefs in your face ,well I'm a bit tired of having evolution thrown in my face.The last I checked there are none of the missing links have been found.
so if they're there and evolution is povable where are the links?
It's a reasonable question.
Mulan, you're my hero!!!
Thank you!
"Christianity is only one belief system and the bible is their book. Other religions have their own books. Other people have no books. We should just find common ground with fellow humans and leave it at that"
LOVE IT!!! This reminded me of a comment an actress (Tyne Daly) made during an interview several years ago. She is white and commented that she had an interracial marriage. The interviewer said "what race is your husband?" She replied "Human". I loved it. I totally agree that we should find some common ground and not argue on endlessly about who has the best and the right philosophy on life. Of course, not all Christians are obnoxious, but many are. We have a sign in our office that says "Jesus, Please Deliver Me From Your Followers"
I'm wondering what kind of evidence would ever be totally acceptable. Even science relies on faith.
Any one person's explanation comes from either his own or from other's reported experiences. At any point, even if there were 'scientific' evidence, it could be doubted. Every report, whether historical writings or over the phone, or even what a scientist (or group of scientists) observes and records is always, ultimately, a report of an subjective experience; nothing is hand-written in the sky for everyone to read.
The pharisees demanded a miracle from Jesus. Had they gotten what they wanted, the next generation would not necessarily have believed their report. At some point, it turns to a situation where we individually choose to trust what is reported (science, history, gossip). This is where we have to figure whether our faith is worth investing in that object or not.
bebu
startingover,
good question. Here is my take on that and this is why you have to be balanced in your view of the bible and realize WHY things were written and at what time.
In Matthew 28:19, 20 Jesus said to his diciples "Go make diciples of people of all the nations" and then baptize them as Christians. Now, it is the long held belief by most Christian churches (and I just KNOW I am going to get flake for this) to believe that what Jesus was saying here is that it is our personal duty as his followers (Christians) to convert the world.
I believe this is a false view:
Prior to this statement, the only people who were being preached to about the gospel were the Jews. Christ said himself that he came for the lost sheep of Israel ONLY. This verse was written to tell his followers that now is the time that it is ALLOWED to go make diciples or spread the gospel message to "people of the nations" or non Israelites, the gentiles. That is all he was saying. You can now speak to them about Christianity also. Not that he was saying I am commanding you to preach and convert all the gentiles. Just simply, go give them the message too. You cannot convert anyone. The gospel preaching is "for a witness" not for converting people. If they are inclined to believe than only they will go further and be baptized. No force or threats was ever used.
If you look back in history of the church, there was no door to door preaching. When Paul mentioned teaching house to house, if you read it in the context, he was already talking about believers being taught in their houses. The gospel was preached usually in an open place and those inclined to hear more, invited the Christians to their home to hear more. No one EVER was forced to listen to the Christian message. If they told the Diciples they did not want to hear it, Jesus told the diciples to "keep on walking" to someone else.
That is why I say the Christian message is for Christians only. I don't believe the world will be converted to Christianity. And I believe the God of the Christian bible is only dealing with believers in the Christian message right now anyway. I personally feel in the bible he has a plan for everyone and NO ONE is going to be annihilated for not becoming a Christian during this time which the Bible calls "the gospel age". Only the Christian church will be believers and that is a great number, but still it is not everyone. It is simply not the path for everyone.
Religions use fear of hellfire, and second death to try to convert people who dont really want to be Christians anyway. So what is the point. When you believe in a God that has a plan for everyone, believers and nonbelievers, your life is so much better and stress free. My children have already said they do not want to be Christians and since I am not under the fear of an org. and understand God's plan, I have no problem with that. I would never think to scare them into becoming Christians with hellfire or second death. These are simply man made doctrines.
And frankly, I am thrilled not to have to shoulder the burden of trying to convert the whole world!
I've heard it before and I can never quite understand the talk by christians about keeping their beliefs to themselves. Doesn't that go against the main thing christianity uses to promote itself. Isn't that one of the main duties of a christian?
That's why it's been described as a meme.
Here's the bottom line ,when I tell someone about my beliefs its only because of the fact that maybe just maybe this bellief has brought some sort of joy in my life,and is it wrong to share my feelings with some if I felt it could make a difference in ones life.now if you choose not to listen to what I have to share ,well that's your choice so I really wish you'd stop painting Christians with a broad brush because in my own opinion that is a little dishonest. By the way I belive it was you who made the statement that christians are the majotirty,I would have to disagree with the statement.If anything we,re the minority. If your statement is tru provide the statistics. Craig
"If you look back in history of the church, there was no door to door preaching. When Paul mentioned teaching house to house, if you read it in the context, he was already talking about believers being taught in their houses. The gospel was preached usually in an open place and those inclined to hear more, invited the Christians to their home to hear more. No one EVER was forced to listen to the Christian message. If they told the Diciples they did not want to hear it, Jesus told the diciples to "keep on walking" to someone else.
That is why I say the Christian message is for Christians only. I don't believe the world will be converted to Christianity. And I believe the God of the Christian bible is only dealing with believers in the Christian message right now anyway. I personally feel in the bible he has a plan for everyone and NO ONE is going to be annihilated for not becoming a Christian during this time which the Bible calls "the gospel age". Only the Christian church will be believers and that is a great number, but still it is not everyone. It is simply not the path for everyone.
Religions use fear of hellfire, and second death to try to convert people who dont really want to be Christians anyway. So what is the point. When you believe in a God that has a plan for everyone, believers and nonbelievers, your life is so much better and stress free. My children have already said they do not want to be Christians and since I am not under the fear of an org. and understand God's plan, I have no problem with that. I would never think to scare them into becoming Christians with hellfire or second death. These are simply man made doctrines.
And frankly, I am thrilled not to have to shoulder the burden of trying to convert the whole world!"
Very well put Lily
Thats the thing most unbelievers don't seem to understand.
lovelylil,
The world would be a much happier place if everyone shared your point of view.
Thanks
