Just wanted to say this is the longest thread on this sort of topic I've seen thus far where it hasn't ended in a series of flame posts:) I love the debate but not the way its normally carried out. To me it is of critical importance that we do debate these topics because debate is the place where competing ideas can be tried in the public forum as opposed to everyone nodding due to preprogrammed 1984 style double thinks as I'm often used to in some environments. I enjoy great debate and new ideas as long as we avoid personalisation (and yea I can be found guilty as well.) Long may it continue.
Are you tired of the whole atheist/believer debate?
by nicolaou 115 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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lovelylil
startingover,
Thanks so much for sharing that link with me. It would make sense that you, having been raised in a religion like the JWs from childhood would feel different than others. This is a good point you have brought out. Although I know others who were raised witnesses that feel called to follow Christ, it is different with everyone.
One thing that saved my spirituality and that of my children is that I had a belief in God and Christ prior to becoming a witness. I knew that he was not the God of the WT who is always looking to punish and destroy. But rather is a good God who is ready to forgive and save. I taught myself biblical things starting at the age of 12. I had prayed since I was practically in diapers and I can't really explain why. Except to say that I personally always felt drawn to a God (higher power). You would think I would never be part of a cult but I really feel duped in my case. I asked a lot of hard questions and not all where the Witnesses able to answer. But, I have always been the type to feel anyone who is God-fearing and loves Jesus should be accepted by me. That is one very hard lesson I have learned. Just because someone appears to be harmless, does not make it so. I think many feel the same way about the JWs, that they are misled, but essentially harmless. That is really the whole evilness behind cults like that. No one in their right mind would join if they really knew what they were getting into.
Also, the fact that everyone was putting on a show (love bombing), I did not realize the truth until after my baptism. It was not long after that I realized that the "spirit" of the whole organization was not Christ like, and therefore, I did not want any part of it. It took a long, long time thought to get out. My hubby who had no religion prior to the JWs, had a much harder time to get out. My kids followed me as I was the one who taught them spiritual things and never taught them the same God of the WT. I never really lost my faith because I realized my mistake was trusting an org. But most of my life in just walking by the teachings of Jesus, I did much better spiritually.
Whether you believe in the Bible or not, a lot of Christs teachings have good benefits for mankind. ( but so does the teachings of other peaceful leaders) And I am thankful I never believed their lies about a mass destruction of mankind. How they can reconcile that with "God is Love" is beyond me. You have probably guessed by now that I was not a very popular JW. My view were very uncommon. And I recieved much persecution in the tower for them.
I am very sorry for the harm done to you and others. My heart really goes out to you. I don't believe everyone will become a Christian nor do they have too. The bible was written only for those who feel compelled to follow Jesus. No one else. Why would his teachings be for others who do not want to be foot step followers of him? My personal belief is that God will not let things continue forever and he will destroy all the religious institutions that man has created and that do not teach the truth about him, including the Watchtower Organization. Then at that time, all mankind will know the truth. Again, this is my belief because I DO believe in God, I cannot speak for anyone else.
Whether you are a believer or not, everyone deserves to live free and in peace.
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daystar
*yawn* Ultimately, I just get tired of rigid thinking on both sides of these sorts of debates.
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kid-A
Ultimately the debate is pointless. You cant argue against 'faith' or faith-based reasoning because at base, it is founded on emotional, visceral reactions and cognitive frameworks. I could present textbook upon textbook, illustrations, graphs, reams of data in support of evolution and a creationist will find a way to disgard the evidence in favour of the argument that appeals to their emotional framework. There is no 'definitive proof' I can give to a believer for the non-existence of their god, just as they can provide me with no definitive proof to the contrary, save for subjective, experiential "testimonials".
Having said that, I am not certain how this topic became framed in a science vs. religion dichotomy. Personally, I am a scientist who is also an atheist. However, most of the other atheists/agnostics on the board are not involved in science at all. Many of my atheist colleagues are lawyers, architects, artists, musicians, politicians, etc etc. Hence, atheism/agnosticism transcends every strata of society, as does belief in the supernatural.
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startingover
Lil
I taught myself biblical things starting at the age of 12. I had prayed since I was practically in diapers and I can't really explain why. Except to say that I personally always felt drawn to a God (higher power).
That's the difference between us. Looking back, the whole Jesus thing never made any sense to me, and although I once strongly believed god was responsible for all the creation, after examining where those beliefs originated I could no longer accept that. I was told once that I am a reality based person, as opposed to faith based. I guess that's the bottom line.
While I'm thinking about it, on another thread you made a comment about how non-believers want to "tear down" your beliefs. That reminds me of my JW wife's comments, that I only say negative things about her religion. It seems to me that without critical thinking, which I think is what you and my wife are really objecting to by your comments, progress wouldn't be made. IMO, without critical thinking humans would never have progressed.
As a non-believer, I would love it if there was a creator and he would speak to me right now, in a way that left no room for doubt. It would make life so much easier. Surely that's within his power. But that's why I don't believe any such being exists, he doesn't bother to do that. Why?
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Oroborus21
Kid-A - when I use the term in this context I mean it to apply very broadly to all who have a systematic method of investigation aka science
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JamesThomas
Oroborus21:
As for myself, I have both a "Believing paradigm" and a "Non-believing Paradigm."
That's pretty much what this thread is about, two mentally created coffins, two sides of the same coin, which isolate us from the reality which is here when there are no beliefs or paradigms one way or the other.
Generally, Christianity (and other religions) drastically shrink the highest significance to some person or thing; a separate localized entity unimaginably too tiny and separate to incorporate within itself all existence. When we allow the mind to reduce and diminish the fount of truth and reality to some thing out there and so small as to not be present, to not be our foundational truth and actuality, then we cut our own throats and live as if life and truth is somehow outside of what we are.....and so we often frantically sculpt mental imagery and beliefs of gods and deities to fill our barrenness.
I liken it to an insanity, the disease of religion...and even atheism can be a religion.
j
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lovelylil
startingover,
First things first, when I said some tear down I did not mean those who question someones faith in sincerity like you do. I meant those who name call and act like I am uneducated, stupid or deranged for having a certain belief.
You are right that God can open your eyes to believe in him. But the Bible shows that many will not believe right now. It is pointless to show all the scriptures here if you don't believe in the bible. but for those who do believe than they will believe that the world is given over to Satan to blind the minds or the unbelievers for a time. Not all are blind, and this is the group that is called the true "Church of God" or "sons of righteousness" This group will reign with Christ. These are the ones God calls. Why them and not others, I do not know.
Isaiah, Ezekiel and Jeremiah fortold that ALL the nations of the earth will have their eyes opened during Christ's reign. They also all fortold the establishment of God's Holy Temple in the Holy Land Jeruselem and the Laws given out from there by Christ to all the nations. There are too many verses to list. If you read these books, you need to use a good bible concordance along with Bible commentaries to get the correct understanding. I also would look up all the cross-referenced texts. Many prophecies regarding the Jews had a two fold meaning. It will tell you in the bible itself what applies to our time. It usually says "in the last days" or "the final days". That is why the JWs books of these Bible books are total hogwash. They apply things to themselves that have not happened yet. Here is one verse that most people know off the top of their head that shows the kingdom is not for only the Church.
Isaiah 2:1-4 (New International Version)
1 This is what Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:2 In the last days
the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established
as chief among the mountains;
it will be raised above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.3 Many peoples will come and say,
"Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
to the house of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths."
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.4 He will judge between the nations
the Church called out now does not need to again learn about God's ways, they already follow his ways and are approved. So, this kingdom is not just for believers. It says many nations and many peoples. Here is a Q for believers to ask themselves. If it is true that Satan has blinded the minds of unbelievers, than how could a loving God hold those "blinded ones" responsible for not obeying him? Unless he opens their eyes to their blindness? This will happen and then "all the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God". After the church is gathered. If the church is gathered to reign with Christ who will they reign over? The JWs believe only them but they are limiting God's grace. I hope in some small way this helps. Because that is a good point that God has to open everyones eyes. Think about this too, why did Christ speak in parables if he wanted everyone to understand him and turn around now to be saved? He gives the answer himself in the gospels, maybe some of the believers will want to look this up themselves. If you don't find the answer, pm me. Take heart the time is coming when all will understand. Thank you for letting me try to explain some of my beliefs. I know sometimes I don't do a good job and therefore I am relieved that I am not trying to convert the whole world to my belief. If I was, the world will be in trouble.
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore. -
heathen
Yah I kinda agree that the atheists are giving God a bad wrap and usually it's because religionists are so friggen weird . I believe the bible is saying that before God destroys the world there will be all kinds of evidence that they ignore . Says there in Revelation , every eye will see yadda yadda . It's like everything in this world becomes a con game when the wrong people get involved . AFA I'm concerned there is a God . I certainly don't hold his bad temper against him as seen in the old testament . I think people deserve what they get in relation .
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nicolaou
I think a major source of the frustration that many atheists feel when debating with believers has to do with the basis for that religious belief. Most believers couldn't give two hoots about reasoned arguments that use logic to expose the flaws in their beliefs. I think that's because very few of them were persuaded to adopt their faith on those logical and reasoned grounds.
Most believers will say something like, "I don't need evidence to believe in God, I know He's real. I have a relationship with Him". Grounding religious belief in this type of 'inner conviction' utterly negates the power of any argument an atheist can bring forward.
Believers feel the truth of god's existence so deeply that, as Little Toe once said to me; "I can no more doubt God's existence than yours". To that I would just say, try a little harder.
I have to say that, when I'm not utterly exhausted, I do love these debates and I know that I for one have learned a lot from them - I was once a believer remember? And yes, it is nice to see a thread like this develop without turning nasty and personal, hell I even found myself agreeing with Qcmbr's last post!