AuldSoul--- Why don't you share with us your exsperience? I would love to read it . I kinda agree with you but I don't think evolution is based on reason or alot of facts . The missing link , why can't it be God? Not that I'm looking for argument here just stating what I believe . Like I said earlier not the least bit interested in that mumbo jumbo of evolution .
Are you tired of the whole atheist/believer debate?
by nicolaou 115 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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AuldSoul
heathen,
I have tried to put it down in MS-Word more times than I can recount. English is a hard language to use in expressing individual experiences that involve intangibles. I'll try to put something together for PM to you, but I won't post it here. My experiences that convince me of the existence of God aren't something I want to expose for higher critics to rip apart. I already know it doesn't meet any standard generally acceptable as proof and I would never offer it as such, but that won't keep people from deriding it if I make it public.
I will share this: My experiences are not at all what most people in the US would expect a Christian to hold as proof of the existence of God. But my forum name is directly related to some of these experiences.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul -
heathen
fine AuldSoul --- I am awaiting your pm . I know how you feel . When trying to relate exsperiences on this board you will only get the Atheist crowd with their insulting tones and judgementalisms . I even tried to relate exsperiences to some j-dubs and they tried to tear it up in front of me . Believe me your exsperience could not out do what I've exsperienced . Although I have known some crack pots myself that I don't believe or believe are demonically possesed that have tried to convince me they were some kind of prophet ( I did meet them in a mental hospital ) this guy was taking advantage of my mentally ill mother and there was nothing anybody could do about it . Anyway, that's a story for another day. I have a very open mind .......
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nicolaou
C'mon guys! Just look at yourselves! This is what we criticise the JW's for doing, not being willing to discuss their perception of the truth outside of the circle that will agree with them. Ray Franz made the excellent observation that one of the reasons the Watchtower has such a strong hold over its members is that its doctrines are only allowed to exist in a vacuum, never bumping up against a contrary point of view.
One of my opening remarks to this topic was that "there are intelligent theists". I stand by that and will gladly say that I am not preparing to 'pounce' on anyone's experience. Not all atheists are 'insulting' or 'judgemental'.
So how about it?
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Narkissos
I guess the big underlying problem in this kind of thread is the implicit negative assessment of subjectivity (vs. objectivity).
Most militant atheists and believers (especially, I feel, in the English-speaking area) seem to share a common belief (!) that subjectivity (and inter-subjectivity) is not enough as far as religion is concerned -- that somehow a religious "truth" ought to meet objective criteria. As a result believers cringe from admitting that their experience is "only" subjective -- which unbelievers insist it is.
Sorry to repeat myself once again: we are subjects. Most of what makes life worth living to us is subjective -- love, friendship, emotion... If we could agree that subjective is not worthless that would help both sides drop their defensive attitudes and make the discussion more interesting, don't you think?
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nicolaou
As I'm sure you'd agree Narkissos, there is no such thing as religious truth or atheist truth - there is only truth, untruth and the unproven (which will eventually become either truth or untruth).
Of course subjectivity makes life worth living, our tastes in art, music, food and even religion are all different but each can bring pleasure or happiness. If religions were viewed in the same light as literature or art in that there was no right or wrong just a matter of preference I would not object so much. No one says "Matisse was right and Picasso was wrong", it doesn't work that way. But religion is so different.
"If we could agree that subjective is not worthless that would help both sides drop their defensive attitudes and make the discussion more interesting, don't you think?"
I do agree. However, do you think that most believers would accept that their beliefs are subjective? That they are held through personal conviction despite independant objective evidence that those beliefs are false?
It does matter.
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AuldSoul
nicolaou,
I know my experiences are subjective, but that has never prevented others from insisting that I objectify them and subject them to objective scrutiny. Subjective experiences are not open to objective examination, personal experiences are not open to disagreement. If unbelievers would agree on that point I would feel comfortable sharing what I have experienced, but I doubt you will be able to convince even the unbelievers who post here to avoid deriding the personal experiences of others.
You see, there is a distinct difference with disagreeing and deriding. There is nothing to disagree with when someone posts a personal experience, the poster never said you had the experience. But there is plenty to deride, if you are of a mind to do so. I would rather not read my personal experiences reduced to the equivalent of belief in pink unicorns.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul -
AuldSoul
nicolaou,
That they are held through personal conviction despite independant objective evidence that those beliefs are false?
What evidence is there that belief in a "spiritual" aspect to reality is false? What evidence is there opposed to the belief in higher order beings who are far more advanced than ourselves inhabiting an aspect to reality that we have yet to develop the means to detect objectively? What evidence contradicts the belief that such beings can and do interact directly with us?
I didn't know you could prove a negative. You are trying to objectify subjective experiences for the purposes of objective disproof. That is not possible.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul -
trevor
I think if we, as humans, realized how little we really know about the universe, of which we occupy a small corner, we would realize that we have a snail size grasp of what is. Wisdom is knowing that we know nothing and being ready to learn more.
We will never learn enough to complete the picture or fully grasp the incredible experience which we are a living part of. Natural and supernatural are simply labels that show how confused we are about the awesome meaning of existence and the power that drives it.
In our attempts to understand we invent personal deities that we can relate to. We endorse belief systems that try to make sense of what we see and experience. Tolerance and understanding of other peoples struggle to comprehend should not be belittled because we are all a long way from truly knowing the answers, whatever we believe.....................
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XJW4EVR
The main reason that I believe in God is simple. I have not read every book, volume or article in the Library of Congress' collection of nearly 800 million pieces. If I do not posses that sort of knowledge on a finite level, how can I possibly say that God does not exist or that "harder" evidence of His existence does not exist somewhere.