Door to Door

by I-follow-the-narrow-path 99 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  I-follow-the-narrow-path

  ALSO-- I noticed I have been picking up things from my teacher
  I notice I explain things to people the way she explains it to me
  I have no idea why I do that, but I do. Someone will tell people why the trinity is false, or about holidays (the same why my teacher taught me)
  I don't mean to do it.. it is an impulse I guess
• 

  just2sheep

  I haven't even started feild service... and WHY would I come here to do it? JW risk chance of excommunication coming here
  
  so as soon as you are baptized you'll be gone? what does the person you are studying with say about you hanging around here until then? you have discussed it with them haven't you? if not then you should.
  
  I am not here to convert people, for I haven't even converted yet
  
  what are you now that you "may" convert from? and i wouldn't worry too much about your ability to convert anyone, here or anywhere else.
  
  I want to see what others (who have been through the org) have to say
  
  why? the org never cared and doesn't care now, unless they need evidence for a jc.
  
  You say it is I who offends God, but I try hardest not to
  
  you aren't succeeding are you? since we all fall short. or are you saying that because you "try hardest" it doesn't count as an off offence.
  
  If I really do offend Jehovah... I can not see it
  
  are you saying that unless you see it jehovah isn't offended?
  
  How can you claim JW are worshippers of Satan...
  
  stick around the jw world long enough and you will most certainly find out.
  
  Why would you put down JW, if you wish to follow God's word
  
  which word are you thinking of? pharisee? hypocrite? serpent? blind guide? wicked slave? liar? thief? pedophile? all of these seem to be acceptable to the ccofjw. they aren't acceptable to god though. who do you wish to follow?
  
  Whatever religion you are it is not good to disrespect. i know you didn't pick this concept from any of the many publications you have read in your month of study, so where did you get it? edited to add: ain't formatting fun. sorry folks.
• 

  spawn2u

  Dear I-follow-the-narrow-path,
  I am not so sure that you are concerned about the what will happen. I read through most of this thread and see some excellent points but many, as true as they are can not stand up to the feelings that you have. You have found something that answers questions you have had for some time, you have found a place where there is true friendship and people who feel and think like you. You have found the only religion that makes sense.... That is exactly the way I fealt into my early 20's, no one could say anything to change my feelings or my beliefs, wow I was screwed up. Speaking from experience this is what you can look forward to.
  1. If you do not fit in after you have been baptized, you will not be included in activities. You may be seen as a bad association if you do not perform well or if the wrong person talks to you or hangs out with you. You may find that the only people who do hang with you or talk to you are the bad ones and thus you get caught in bad fruit bowl, turn brown and will become disgusted with the way you are treated.
  2. You will be inclined to follow the lead of the organization, the brothers, this will lead to missery. You will have to cut off friends who are not in the religion, disfellowshipped or disassociated members. You will loose family members over this religion. If you make a choice that leads to your disfellowshipping or disassociation you will loose any friends and family in the religion.
  3. No matter how good you are, no matter how hard you try, it will never be enough and that will be your life lesson and if you are a good JW it will echo in all that you do, you will have no self esteme.
  I hope you find the answer you are looking for and I hope that you do not have to experience pain finding the answer.
  spawn exit
• 

  peacefulpete

  
  You touched on a specific example of JW spin on Bible texts, the identification of Michael with Jesus. You felt it was a facinating even exciting truth however a bit of research on the subject outside the JW box reveals a much different picture. Michael was a popular character during whats often called the intertestamental period, that is the time between the writing of most of the OT and the NT. Dozens of stories about angels and archangels captured the imagination of readers of Tobit,Daniel, 1 and 2 Enoch and many others. Michael was one of 7 archangels. His role in some traditions was to be the leader of the angelic armies of God. In all the OT and Intertestamental stories as well as the 2 mentions in the NT it is never suggested that he was Jesus. It is not true that only one archangel is mentioned in the Bible, Gabriel was from the very same pre Christian Jewish traditons known as an archangel. Jude's mention of Michael arguing with Satan over the body of Moses is itself drawing upon the story in the apocryphal Jewish book called the Testament of Moses. Other works like the Targums (Jewish scripture commentary) had included the story that Michael was responsible for burying Moses and so these are the sources for the passage in Jude.

  1 Thess says that when Jesus comes to war there will be heard a shout an archangel's voice and trumpet. These three things are traditionally associated with war. As I said earlier Michael was regarded in some traditions as the general over the armies of heaven. There is absolutely no reason to suggest that the writer of 1 Thess intended to say that Jesus was the archangel any more than it was intended to suggest that Jesus was the blower of the trumpet or the one shouting. Think about it to say Jeus was using an archangels voice (which is not actually said) would in fact be a very odd way to say Jesus was an archangel.

  Take a few hours doing research about Michael the archangel in preChristian writings so as to understand the character Christian writers were making reference to. The JW insistance that archangel Michael was Jesus' alter ego has been retain primarily because it seems to offer support for their denial that some NT writers regarded Jesus as God. However it requires ignoring the larger picture as well as the actual reading of 1 Thess.
• 

  heathen

  I think there is evidence to support jesus being the arch angel michael tho . Right there in Daniel 12 where micheal stands up and the dead are resurrected I think is evidence . Jesus is the resurrection not some lower ranking angel . Michael did seem to have more authority than gabriel even since he was caught and could not escape by some evil forces and then Michael saves him .

  anyway , as long as you're happy then there is nothing we can say but find out for yourself . If you think slaving for a coporation is more important than an education , there are plenty of stories around about what a mistake that is . I actually still agree with some of what the WTBTS says but I am finding alot of fault in their reasonings and alot of misinformation on the past .
• 

  Hellrider

  About the Michael is Jesus-doctrine: It is correct that in a couple of places in the OT, Michael is given a Messianic role. The confusion here partially lies in thedifference between what the word "Messiah" means today (after 2000 years of christianity) and what it actually meant 2000 years ago (in its proper context). Today, of course, the Messiah is a character that has become synonymious with Jesus Christ. 2000 years ago in Palestine/Judah, it meant "messenger of God", sort of like "prophet", but much stronger. The JWs use verses like 1 Thessalonians 4:16: "the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet", and an almost identical verse is given in Revelation. From this verse the JWs conclude that the Lord Jesus Christ is an archangel because he has "an archangel’s voice." This is a very far stretch. But the most compelling argument against the "Michael is Jesus"-view, is in Revelation, which in my opinion does away with the argument all together, in several different verses.

  In Revelation 1:12-20 , the Son of Man stands between 7 golden lampstands, which symbolises the 7 congregations (to which John is writing the letter). The Son of Man is Jesus Christ (identified by passages like "I am the first and last", and he "holds the keys to Hades in his hand" and "the one who was dead, but look, I am now alive" etc, you get the picture), and he holds seven stars in his hand! And the seven stars are identified as the "7 angels" (verse 20), and these 7 angels are the 7 archangels in judeo-christian mythology. These angels are listed in 1 Enoch, and are Uriel, Raphael, Raguel, Michael, Sariel, Gabriel, and Remiel.

  Chapter 5 also has the same thing. The Lamb (Jesus Christ) suddenly appears in the circle, a Lamb that "appeared to have been killed", and he had " seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth". These "7 spirits" are identified in verse 4:5 as "the seven angels of God", notably the arch angels (listed above). And the 7 angels are still hanging around in chapter 7:10 They were shouting out in a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God, to the one seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 7:11 "And all the angels stood there in a circle around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they threw themselves down with their faces to the ground before the throne and worshiped God"

  So Michael the archangel is identified as a different character than the Lamb/the Son of Man/Jesus Christ/ the Word of God. Michael is one of the angels that are protecting the Lamb.

  ALSO-- I noticed I have been picking up things from my teacher
  I notice I explain things to people the way she explains it to me
  I have no idea why I do that, but I do. Someone will tell people why the trinity is false, or about holidays (the same why my teacher taught me)
  I don't mean to do it.. it is an impulse I guess

  Perfectly natural. Pretty soon, you will be fluent in JW-speak.

  "JW-paranoia, that makes you think that anyone who are criticising your religion, or trying to "de-convert you", basically are the spawn on Satan"
  
  --- ARE you serious here? I don't think you are the devil, of course not. I just think some people are mislead. There is a difference between being a spawn of the devil and being mislead

  No, not right now. But pretty soon, there will be a voice in the back of your mind telling you that anyone who dare criticise the JW-religion, is an opposer, someone who works under the influence of the devil. Also, you will eventually (perhaps you allready are) be equating the JW-interpretation of the Bible with the Bible itself! You will believe that whenever someone criticises the JW-interpretation of the Bible, that they are people who automatically dismiss the Bible, the holy word of God, and consequently, that means they are from the Devil himself. This is another step in your programming. Pretty soon you will believe that the Catholic church is part of Satans organisation.

  This is called brainwashing. Your are good on your way allready.
• 

  jwfacts

  Narrow, The book Combatting Cult Mind Control is not biased, it was written by a Moonie, and is not about JWs. It shows that all mind control religions have a similar basis of controlling their members. All high control groups feel only they have the truth and no one else does. You believe that the Watchtower is giving you truth. What do you feel people studying with other religions believe? They too are studying, reading scriptures and think they are being taught the truth. While you are a teenager you are very vunerable to accepting others beliefs. Religions have great success converting teenagers. Before dedicating your life to a high control group you should at least wait until your mind and reasoning faciilty has fully developed. A recent National Geographic said that this does not happen until 25. Remember that Jesus did not get baptised until he was 30.
• 

  jwfacts

  Narrow,
  
  The book Combatting Cult Mind Control is not biased, it was written by a Moonie, and is not about JWs. It shows that all mind control religions have a similar basis of controlling their members.
  All high control groups feel only they have the truth and no one else does. You believe that the Watchtower is giving you truth. What do you feel people studying with other religions believe? They too are studying, reading scriptures and think they are being taught the truth.
  While you are a teenager you are very vunerable to accepting others beliefs. Religions have great success converting teenagers. Before dedicating your life to a high control group you should at least wait until your mind and reasoning faciilty has fully developed. A recent National Geographic said that this does not happen until 25. Remember that Jesus did not get baptised until he was 30.
• 

  I-follow-the-narrow-path

  Thanks for the comments everyone
  Yeah my friend and I had a big fight about my (supposedly) being brainwashed. I feel very very sorry for him.
  I don't think I will leave here... I like chatting with you people :) Some are mislead and that is okay... that shouldn't hinder me from talking to you.
  Oh, I know all about cult control tactics. "love bombing"- that is one the JW use, but it is not a bad thing. It makes the person feel more accepted and apart of something. I mean would you "hate bomb" someone? They are just trying to be nice... I think.
  I think some of you oppose JW, because of some stuff I read.
  I think it is horrible that people study other religion. I, myself, started to study Buddhism and was going to go through it. At the high point of my wanting to convert to buddhism my (now) JW teacher said to me "All other religions are false"-- she did not find out of my wanting to convert. That may have been a switch turned on in my head, because at that point all my trust was in here and still is in her.
  My friend said that I was a different person and that is why he doesn't like talking to me much. He said that I was a person with problems in my life (I was angry and had bizzare thoughts), so I let somone else take control of me, it made me vunerable.
  I DO NOT think that is true though, I mean sure I am different, but I am happy. I have had less anger outburst and almost completely stopped thinking bad thoughts :)
  Sorry... but I don't really like reading stuff from the bible that goes against the WTS. I like reading lights stuff. I get very nervous reading stuff, that is in depth, going against the religion. I mean, sure I want to know, but I feel really nervous reading that stuff.... kinda guilty and I honestly DO NOT know why.
  I'll try and do more research, but a lot of sites I find are very anti-JW and I want something that is not biased. Maybe I will check that book out... THANKS
  Elizabeth:)
• 

  I-follow-the-narrow-path

  To "Just2sheep"
  "so as soon as you are baptized you'll be gone? what does the person you are studying with say about you hanging around here until then? you have discussed it with them haven't you? if not then you should."
  I may stay... I am not sure, if I did I would run risk of excommunication. I haven't discussed it with them and I think it would be a bad thing to study with my teacher or other JWs.
  "what are you now that you "may" convert from? and i wouldn't worry too much about your ability to convert anyone, here or anywhere else."
  I do not belong to any organized religion now.
  "you aren't succeeding are you? since we all fall short. or are you saying that because you "try hardest" it doesn't count as an off offence."
  Yes, we are all imperfect.. which is why everyone will in some way offend God. I try not to though, but I know I do not try the hardest.
  "are you saying that unless you see it jehovah isn't offended?"
  Nope, not at all. I am saying that I can not see how I am offending him that is all. That doesn't mean it is okay, if I am offending him.
  "which word are you thinking of? pharisee? hypocrite? serpent? blind guide? wicked slave? liar? thief? pedophile? all of these seem to be acceptable to the ccofjw. they aren't acceptable to god though. who do you wish to follow?"
  well, I think I am following the truth, but I do not know. It seems as though it is very acceptable to God. Maybe I am the one mislead.
  "Whatever religion you are it is not good to disrespect. i know you didn't pick this concept from any of the many publications you have read in your month of study, so where did you get it?"
  It is common sense to tolerate other religion. I explain it as, there is a big differemce betweem tolerating and accepting something. I used to be studying Buddhism and my father is buddhism (non strict). I tolerate it, but I do not accept it.
  Thanks :) Elizabeth