"Mire of atheism..."

by Julie 93 Replies latest jw friends

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  proplog2

  What about the possibility of a not-so-powerful "god" or "gods". What about the possibility of a less-than-all knowing "god" or "gods"?

  Might the drama unfolding on earth have occured millions of times in the universe? Could there be a civilization somewhere that has a couple thousand years lead on us? Couple million years maybe?

  Such would certainly appear "god-like" to us.

  I am inclined to believe that this is the case. There are certain themes and prophecies in the Bible that cannot be explained by simple coincidence.

  I will try to make that case in a future post.
• 

  Tina

  Hi all!
  I wait for some reasonable logical explanantions posited by Julie et al.
  Considering religions checkered and violent history,it becomes glaringly obvious that literature such as the bible and koran are amoral and immoral. And that those who adhere to the moral precepts in such continue to display their moral principles inconsistently.

  It's tribalism as it's best,while encouraging violent intolerance or simple passivity.

  Talk about being 'mired' in something.
  Religion has and always will be mired in conflicting dogmas,irrational beliefs,based not on reason but on the suspension of it.

  In contrast,atheism demands a committment to reason and rationality using history, all available data of our experiential world.

  It requires free thought and debate as opposed to thought that is closed and conformist.

  Atheism is not based on the subjective 'magical thinking' that there
  are supernatural entities(SUper sky-daddys) that promise to fix everything and make it all better.
  It does not require us to suspend logic and rational thinking.As some have said it actually requires working thru all the data. It does not encourage and foster delusion and illusion.
  It is not for 'Utopians.Tina

  Carl Sagan on balancing openness to new ideas with skeptical scrutiny..."if you are open to the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense-you cannot distinguish useful ideas from worthless ones."
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  AlanF

  Proplog, I suppose there is the possibility a 'god' or of 'godlike beings' doing all sorts of things in the universe. But that isn't in line with the question of Atheism. The Christian view of God is that there is only one, and that he is omiscient and omnipotent. In their view, a 'god' would at best be a created being, and certainly not the unique, Supreme, Omnipotent and Omniscient God.

  AlanF
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  proplog2

  Alan:

  Good point. In the convenional definition - God - has some specific characteristics - omniscient, omnipotence. It is this definition that forces me into the position of being an atheist.

  I am still open to the possibility that we are not alone in the universe.
• 

  AlanF

  To Proglog2:

  : .... It is this definition that forces me into the position of being an atheist.

  I understand completely.

  : I am still open to the possibility that we are not alone in the universe.

  Again I understand. I've had similar thoughts.

  Another "possibility" has been a mainstay of science fiction for more than half a century: that there are "wheels within wheels" ad infinitum, much like the closing scene of the movie "Men In Black".

  Whether these "possibilities" are realities, or only the (possibly longing) imaginings of people who once believed in the Christian God is beyond my understanding.

  AlanF
• 

  dedalus

  All of you godless lost souls,

  God is love, that's how we know he exists. Only the blind and arrogant who are too wise in their own understanding don't understand that. And God loves all of his children, even the ones he has to kill. That may be hard to understand but unless you do God's going to kill you too. I wouldn't want to be anything but a Christian because then you're saved, or you have the best odds anyway, plus then you're always right without having to study geology and crap like that, and being right is a really good feeling. Only don't be too proud because then God might kill you because he loves you.

  Dedalus, wearing his irony cap today
• 

  Bridgette

  <<We tried to make belief in the bible work, but found it to be like fitting a round peg in a square hole!>>
  That's so true, Ranchette. I read and reread the bible HOPING, TRYING to find ways to piece it all together. To no avail. I always say the reading of the bible was my first awakening out of the truth. My so called "down fall".
  And while I have beliefs that tend towards something "larger than ourselves" (perhaps nothing more than a collective consciousness--I personally connect to the feminine; what I call goddess), I always must fall back on this one, inescapable fact: "no one knows more about the unknown than anyone else". A very wise athiest friend of mine taught me that.
  The key lies in scientific method. Christians have no concept of this. They have an agenda, and their very existance is based on this agenda, (to convert the world to their beliefs, and barring this, their god is going to kill all the rest of mankind) and this colors everything. This taints any kind of logical discussion or thought. Therefore, I do not even try. I have come to this conclusion: Humans are evolving (please, this IS IRREFUTABLE--see cover of TIME magazine last month-"How Apes Became Human"). I believe our evolution has become more mental and, yes I'll say it--spiritual. Some humans still need a "religion" with very simplistic answers to even the most complex questions (no matter HOW ABSURD THESE "ANSWERS" ARE)--and then a god to kill everyone who doesn't beleive in these answers. They also need the rigid structure of religion and ritual (btw, some of the MOST moral people I know are athiests).
  Anyway, this does not make religionists less, per say. I say, let the people who need religion, have it. What I do not agree with AGENDAS, especially when they are propagated on the most innocent of humans, children. Which brings me to my next pet peeve, the dumbing down of the American education system. We cannot let the creation myth be taught, if we hope to advance as a species. In my case, my first biology class in 8th grade was the first eye opener to the logic of evolution.
  Oh, enough of my soap box.
  B.
  "Believing is easier than thinking. Hence so many more believers than thinkers." --Bruce Calvert
• 

  Tina

  bttt
  Hoping to see more thoughts on this, atheist or christian.T

  Carl Sagan on balancing openness to new ideas with skeptical scrutiny..."if you are open to the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense-you cannot distinguish useful ideas from worthless ones."
• 

  Abaddon

  :I welcome those of your quality of character and refusal to sink into the mire of atheism or deep cynicism.

  :I welcome those of you whose quality of character enabled you to refuse to remain in the the mire of theism and deep delusion.

  The two above statements are, in their own ways, equally arrogant.

  But the second one is a paraphrase of first with the noticable exception of having correct grammatic structure.

  Are there no English teachers in heaven?
• 

  Julie

  Hi Borgfree--

  :I have arrived at some conclusions and have remained Christian. I do not know why God ordered the killing of men, women and children, including infants. I have been taught reasons 'why' some of those reasons make sense to me, some not so much sense.

  I don't have a problem with this. If you are OK with worshipping a God who's into genocide that's your thing. All I ask is for believers to understand how some people might think such behavior very un-Godlike and hardly worthy of worship. I have a serious problem with Christians who think themselves more superior/righteous than someone who thinks God wouldn't condone/commit such horrible atrocities.

  :I could repeat my statements above about a lot of 'why did God' do this or that. As humans we are faced with some realities. If God exists, we can question all we want, we can accuse Him all we want, etc. But if He exists then what? Do we say, 'ok God I will not believe in you, I will believe that you do not exist!' Does that change the outcome? Wouldn't that way of thinking just punish ourselves.

  I suppose I could trun the question around. What if God does not exist? Look at the resources wasted, for what? Who profits? And if God does exist and it turned out to be the God of the bible I would have plenty to say before I left the presence of such a hateful being.

  :For my reasons, by research, and much bible reading I believe in the God of the bible. I believe that I cannot understand some things that He does, but I believe He has asked us to have faith for a few short years of our life and be obedient to Him and He will give us an eternity of blessings we cannot even imagine.

  Ah, the Hook, Eternal Life. I understand how this is such a desirable concept. During a recent discussion with a believing friend of mine, after all arguments were exhausted she finally shared her very child-like, but essential, reason for believing, "I can't stand the idea of my grandma not being in heaven."

  I appreciate your honesty on this issue Borgfree, I respect your views and wish we could all somehow be more respectful toward views different than our own.

  Seeker, you rock. Thanks for your input.

  I appreciate reading everyone's thoughts on the matter. I was truly hoping that some of the believers here who seem to have reached rather lofty heights in their righteousness would reply. I guess they actually don't have a whole lot to say afterall.

  Take care all--
  Julie