"Mire of atheism..."

by Julie 93 Replies latest jw friends

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Ah, Scorpion, you continue displaying the 'cleverness' of the cornered Fundy. No matter what evidence is brought forth, you find ways to let yourself dismiss it. This is precisely the modus operandi of the good Jehovah's Witness, and the good Young-Earth Creationist.

    : Still waiting for more of those Turkana boys to be unearthed so we know the lone one was not constructed by someone with an agenda.

    The likelihood of finding more than one fossil of a particular creature in a particular spot is low. Nevertheless, assemblages of fossils of ancient hominds have been found. The famous "Lucy" -- a 40% complete Australopithecus, including significant parts of the skull, legs and hips -- was found alone but many other, but more incomplete, specimens have been found, some in the same location and strata. As for Homo erectus type specimens, which "Turkana Boy" was classified as until recently (some paleontologists now call it Homo ergaster on physiological grounds), these have been known since the famous "Java man" skull was found more than 100 years ago. In the 1930s many skulls were found in China, and specimens have been found also in Europe and India.

    How much more evidence do you want? The simple fact is that if tomorrow another Turkana Boy were unearthed, you'd find excuses to dismiss it, probably demanding a third, then a fourth, and finally just ignoring all of the evidence.

    : Kinda reminds me of the missing link, or maybe Bigfoot, what about the Lochness Monster?

    Big difference, dorkbrain. No one has ever brought back verifiable physical remains of such supposed creatures. Turkana Boy has been examined by a number of respected paleontologists and forensic scientists, casts have been made of the bones and distributed around the world, the original bones are in a museum vault in Kenya, and many papers have been published in peer-reviewed journals. Only a few YECs -- not even JWs -- have the stupidity to question such evidence. But even the most notorious YECs, like Duane Gish of the ICR, are not so stupid as to question it. They simply claim they were not human. What an apish/humanish skull is doing on top of a human skeleton, they don't trouble themselves to comment about.

    Of course, we all know that even if a group of YECs were given the opportunity to examine the bones, they'd figure out any number of ways to dismiss the evidence.

    : I went back to the two sites you posted about the Turkana boy and read them 'again'.

    Very good, but you should have examined a lot more websites. And you have yet to look at the published written material I told you about. And you have yet to comment on the actual evidence.

    : I do not see how this find proves evolution as far as one living species turning or evolving into another.

    It doesn't. The point is that it fits into a pattern that proves that an evolution of body plans has occurred. This evolution of populations is a fact that is shown by the fossil record. Go back and read my comments to Utopian Reformist on this. I carefully explained that this fact of evolution of populations has nothing whatsoever to do with the question of why the populations evolved. It could be due to "mindless evolution", to use a popular term. It could be due to a Supreme Creator creating and destroying species after species.

    Get it through your head, Scorpion: the fossil record proves an evolution of life; it says nothing about the mechanism of that evolution. You can console yourself by thinking, "God did it."

    The problem for obvious YECs like you is that you can't admit that God might not have created everything by fiat some 6,000 years ago. The problem is not necessarily in the Bible itself -- many Christians have no trouble accepting a God-directed evolution -- but in the fact that you people are tied to ancient ideas that you've learned since infancy. You can no more give them up than a JW can give up the notion of a spirit-directed Governing Body. At least, most of you can't. It's purely an emotional thing and has nothing to do with real evidence.

    : What if they found the buried skull of someone with the head of the Elephant man (John Meric)(sp), would these individuals that found the Turkana boy try to link the elephant mans skull to evolution? I wonder!

    Of course, such a finding would turn the paleontological world on its ear, if it were found not to be an aberration. So would finding human fossils in the same strata as dinosaur fossils. But since nothing like that has ever been found, and all fossils I'm aware of are reasonably consistent with the standard evolutionary picture, such speculations are moot.

    Your question is like asking, "What would scientists do if someone brought a living T-Rex to the Bronx Zoo?" Well of course there would be a great deal of reorganization of paleontology and other subjects. But such speculations are completely useless in determining the history of life on earth.

    So, Scorpion, when are you going to present some evidence as to why anyone ought to think that Turkana Boy might be a hoax?

    AlanF

  • Julie
    Julie

    AF--

    Why do we hit our heads against the wall like this?

    Julie

  • Scorpion
    Scorpion

    AlanF,

    I said," I do not see how this find proves evolution as far as one species turning or evolving into another.

    You said, " It doesn't. The point is that it fits into a pattern that proves an evolution of body plans has occured.

    Are you speaking of adaptation? If so, this makes more sense.

    Julie,

    Take two aspirin and get a good nights sleep.

    Bridgette,

    Peddle Religion???

  • Julie
    Julie

    Hi Rex/WW--

    Just bumping this to the top, lest you forget I am waiting for your reply.

    Julie, who looks forward to being enlightened regarding some of the most horrible scriptures

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    To Scorpion:

    : I said,"I do not see how this find proves evolution as far as one species turning or evolving into another."

    : You said, "It doesn't. The point is that it fits into a pattern that proves an evolution of body plans has occured."

    : Are you speaking of adaptation? If so, this makes more sense.

    I already explained what my statement meant:

    "Get it through your head, Scorpion: the fossil record proves an evolution of life; it says nothing about the mechanism of that evolution."

    Adaptation is part of one attempt to explain how evolution works. No explanation can be absolutely proved since no one observed the evolution of life over hundreds of millions of years. The fossil record contains a pattern in which evolution is observed to occur. It is the pattern, not evolution directly, which is observed. This pattern can be explained in a variety of ways, which I already commented on.

    If evolution occurred via God-direction, then adaptation is not a cause but a result of the creative process. If evolution occurred via (I'm simplifying here) via "survival of the fittest", then adaptation is a driving force (part of the mechanism) of evolution.

    You really need to read some books on the subject. The subject of evolution is so large that it can't be learned on a discussion board.

    AlanF

  • Julie
    Julie

    WW--

    Still waiting. I met your unreasonable demands and you said if did that you'd answer.

    Julie

  • Scorpion
    Scorpion

    Alan,

    Thank you for your last reply. I would be interested in looking at one or two sites you recommend as far as the evolutionary process. I would like the sites to be unbiased either way, against or for creation or evolution.

    My time is limited so I cannot read a ton of research or documentation. I have read some sites on evolution a few years ago that were posted on a couple of forums but I was not very impressed at the time. Much of what you pointed out I do not have a problem with. What I have a problem with is when someone who believes in evolution completely discounts any creation aspect. I also have problems with religionists that completely ignore any aspect of evolution and adaptation.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    To Scorpion,

    I don't know of any websites that would qualify as "unbiased either way" in the view of everyone. Every site I've ever looked at leans fairly strongly one way or another. I haven't looked at a lot of websites, though, so you might have better luck. Evolution-oriented websites generally take the standard scientific view and either completely ignore creationist arguments, or they contain essays that debunk a lot of the standard creationist claims. Most creationist websites are young-earth oriented and, in my view, generally oversimplify the creation/evolution question to the point that it's either young-earth creationism or nothing. There are (or used to be) a small number of websites dealing with the notion of "intelligent design", and these are a lot more reasonable than the YEC sites, but they also tend to oversimplify and thus misrepresent certain aspects of the question.

    That's why you must educate yourself by reading real scientific literature and coming to your own conclusions. I've only seen a tiny number of creationists who fairly treat the subject of evolution. Davis Young is an old-earth creationist who has written several books (mostly now out of print) that fairly treat the evidence. The IBRI (Interdisciplinary Biblical Research Institute; http://www.ibri.org/ ) puts out a lot of material supporting old-earth creationism, and generally manages to treat solid scientific evidence properly. YECs hate both of these with a passion because they support creation but provide solid debunkings of YECism.

    My favorite website that supports standard evolutionary theory is http://www.talkorigins.org . It presents a lot of material on the creation/evolution controversy and is largely oriented towards debunking young-earth creationism. You'll learn a lot by reading the many essays on the site. You'll find plenty of references to the latest scientific literature. Once you understand a good fraction of the issues of the C/E controversy, you'll see for yourself how terribly most creationists on the web misrepresent the issues.

    Being raised a JW, I once held to their odd combination of young/old earth creationism. I had to unlearn many false things to understand what science actually says. I was constantly surprised to find out how badly the WTS had misrepresented things, and even how much they had borrowed from the YECs. As a result, I've come to understand that a large portion of material written by JWs and YECs is grossly misrepresentative of science, often due to ignorance but far too often due to a deliberate attempt to mislead their readers. It's that deliberate dishonesty that irritates me so much.

    AlanF

  • Scorpion
    Scorpion

    Thanks for the websites Alan. I bookmarked them and will take the time to look them over.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Dear Gumby;

    Your post

    Wow!!!!!! Seems like about 90% or so who responded to this thread are non believers in the God of the bible! I do have to wonder how hard these ones have put as much effort in material that proves the bible true as they do in material negative to the bible.

    Etc.

    Dripped with the assumption that atheistic xJW’s are atheists because they are hurt or bitter, and they haven’t bothered to research properly. That is arrogant, and wrong, thus the invitation to you to go stuff your assumptions.

    I have encountered MANY theists on xJW boards, and not one of them has shown a truly high level of understanding of evolutionary theory. I’ll be mellower if you are less arrogant and prone to fatuous assumptions. But as you immediately say “That comment is so typicall (sic.) of ones who now have no hope”, you obviously have so many fatuous assumptions there is little hope of me being mellower or you being less arrogant.

    As for hope, I hope in HUMANS. No spirit in the sky to kiss it better. No putting up with shit in this life because it will be better in the after-world. No abdication of responsibility for the state of the world.

    Even in light of terrible acts like last Tuesdays, I see humanity as shining through, winning through. I see eternity in the minds of those I leave behind, maybe even, if I ever do something truly special, being remembered by people who never even knew me. And you know what? My hope is REAL, as in tangible and provable. Yours is a belief, intangible, unprovable. Harsh but fair sad but true; you might have some subjective proof, but objectice proof, I don't think so.

    The world is, generally, getting better. We are born, we die, we touch those we meet on the way. Even if we are not Bach, our memory lives on in our children and their children.

    Why should I make up stuff about a god or reduce my standards of proof just so I have some nice cheesy hope that is really just a hit of Opium to stop me being afraid of dying?

    Dear Rex;

    In absence of any reply I have to assume you are rude and ignorant.

    Dear Scorpion;

    I said “You use your claims for skepticism to hide your reluctance to re-evaluate your belief structure.” I did not say anything about you hiding a belief structure. I said, quite clearly I believe, that I think you come up with all this skepticism as you are unwilling to genuinely explore what and why you believe from the ground up. It’s an excuse. Show you a skeleton, it’s “Oh, it might be fake.” Do some research. Why is this skeleton a fake? Why should we go out of our way to prove that something that has been extensively peer-reviewed is not a fake? You can do the work. I did. Others did. I’m not going to treat you like a child and spoon-feed you easily digestible lumps of evolutionary theory. If you genuinely want to know, go to a library, and stop asking questions you wouldn’t ask if you a better understanding of fossils and evolution.

    As your skepticism is used to prevent you engaging in the debate properly, I call it a stance. A pose. A position. Anyone who is engaging in a debate properly and equipping themselves to engage in the debate meaningfully by learning about the subject in greater detail can be as skeptical as they like. I don’t think you are, so your skepticism is just a ruse.

    Oh, and yes, there has been fabrication and fraud in evolutionary science. But analytical techniques are far superior to when ‘Piltdown Man’ suckered scientists, and help to prevent fraud succeeding.
    As religion is an arena full of fabrication and fraud, the fact a few scientists did what theists did for millennia to shore up their beliefs and increase their reputations, the fact that there is fraud in science is not a point in itself.

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