"Mire of atheism..."

by Julie 93 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  AlanF

  Hi UR,

  There are certainly many unanswered questions about human evolution. As you study the subject in detail, you'll find that a number of your questions will be answered. The first thing to understand is that you need to discard many of your present notions since they were formed largely by misinformation from the Watchtower Society. Until I studied the subject in some detail, I had no idea how badly the Society has misrepresented evolution generally. The Society has borrowed bad criticisms from many sources, including young-earth creationists who have time and again shown themselves grossly dishonest in their efforts to knock down evolution.

  A fundamental concept is to separate the fact of evolution from various ideas about the mechanisms of evolution. The fossil record is extremely clear: life has evolved over time, in the sense that life forms that once existed no longer do, and new life forms have arisen. That is the basic definition of evolution. It has nothing to do with whether the evolution happened entirely due to natural causes, or was guided by some supreme being. Similarly, the question of the origin of life has nothing to do with the fact of evolution as observed in the fossil record. One of the fundamental mistakes that the WTS has made is to fail to understand these points, and so it has caused a great deal of unnecessary misunderstanding in the JW community.

  The fossil record of human evolution shows a change over time of the kinds of apes, apelike creatures, and humanlike creatures that exist at any given time. The earliest creatures that combine a few humanlike features with ape features were the Australopithecines. Their brains were a little larger than those of chimpanzees, but their hip and leg structure was a combination of human and ape. Later forms had very humanlike hips and legs, and were clearly capable of upright walking. Over time many of these died out, and new humanoids appeared.

  By about two million years ago a species called Homo erectus had appeared. This creature had a body very close to that of a modern human, but the head was quite different. The brain was about 2/3 the size of a modern human's, and the shape of the head was so different from anyone living today that it would be considered grossly deformed. You can find pictures of one skeleton of a related creature, including the head, of the "Turkana boy" here:

  
  http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/15000.html
  http://www.inhandmuseum.com/LA/erectus/ergaster.html
  
  This kind of creature is unexplainable in strict creationist terms. Down through the ages other types of humanlike creatures arose and then disappeared, and this is again unexplainable by strict creationists. You can find tons of information on various websites by typing "Turkana boy" at a search engine.

  What is fairly clear is that the older the fossil, the farther it tends to be from the modern human form. Neanderthals seem to have first appeared around 250,000 years ago, and coexisted with creatures that seem to be the direct ancestors of modern man. They seem to have died out around 30,000 years ago. Cro-Magnons were identical to modern humans and so they have certainly not died out.

  The problem of "where is everything in between" is not really a problem once you realize that more than 99% of all species that have ever lived are gone.

  You have plenty to study, UR, if you want to really understand this stuff. It's very rewarding, though, and I highly recommend it.

  AlanF
• 

  sunstarr

  bboyneko:

  I'm sure God, in his infinite wisdom, killed the evil babys and infants. Really, why didnt god just make the evil nations barren, the women unable to conceive and the men infertile..have them die out peacfully. Is it just to punish innocent babys for the ins of their fathers? The bible says no, yet god did it all the time.

  Where would you draw the line between God's intervention and man's free will? Perhaps God felt that a point had to be made. Why did he allow 10 plagues to befall Egypt? Why not just peacefully walk his people out of the land? Clearly neither Pharaoh, nor the Egyptians had any respect for God. Further, what would peacefully walking them out of Egypt say to surrounding nations about the true God? Pharaoh was given a warning. "Let my people go..." He said no. The plagues came and went, and eventually he got the point. He then let the people go. His heart again changed and he pursued the Israelites. To what end? He and his army were destroyed in the Red Sea. Again, a point was made. A point that most definitely would not have been made had they just been peacefully led from the land. You then said "...punish innocent babies for the sins of their fathers." What makes you think it's punishment? How do you know that the babies are not now in a better place? To say that they were "punished" by being killed is to judge what happened to them at death? Does anyone really know what happened to them at death?

  It seems to me that many on this board advocate science as a means of explaining the origin of humanity. So let's use that as a basis for a scenario:

  You are a scientist at the top of your field. No one can match your knowledge or expertise. You create an experiment that allows you to completely monitor and control your parameters. Along come some college students who suggest that you are not fit to conduct such an experiment and that it would be better run under it's own guidance, completely self-propelled. You defend that this is not the case and that the experiment should clearly be run under your supervision, yet, to prove your point, you adjust the experiment. It will now be self-sufficient in it's proceedings. Along the way, a few conditions begin to develop that you don't agree with. Yet, to conduct the experiment properly, you must avoid interfering. However, the college students begin to interfere in a way that would be destructive to the nature of the experiment. Therefore, from time to time, you must step in to ensure a balance. Why do you allow some things to happen, and yet step in for other cases? Only you, as the scientist, can decide what is necessary to allow in order to accurately prove your point. No one else can judge. Further, the experiment must run it's course for a sufficient amount of time in order to justify your position. Does this mean that you do not care about the things you have created? Most certainly not. Naturally, you do care and wish for your experiment to be successful.

  Although this illustration can no where near compare to the position God is in, it may give some basis for why things happen the way they do. Of course, this is just my perspective. No one has to agree with it, but it may serve as something interesting to think about.
• 

  conflicted

  There are a lot of differing opinions here, and that is all they are - opinions. Because NOBODY KNOWS for sure, there is no proof one way or the other. I think that's what makes threads of this sort great, nobody is right or wrong - just different thoughts.

  So, here is my opinion.

  Two thousand years ago man worshipped many gods. The greeks and romans had gods for everything; weather, crops, love, procreation, luck, war etc... Then man extended his base of knowledge. Science explained weather patterns - poof, there go the weather gods. Biology explained anatomy and the life cycles of plants and animals - poof, no more gods of fertility and love.

  Once these gods (who were once part of a grand divine purpose) were proven false, the whole belief system fell apart. I doubt that this happened overnight, but rather over a lengthy period of time. During which people slowly lost their faith in the old system, and a new one was born.

  In the meantime, archeoligical discoveries of past civilizations were found. Scrolls and tablets spoke of 'One God' who created everything. This system fit the bill for these people whose old gods were proven lacking.

  Now, there is a worldwide acceptance of the 'One God' belief sytem. Christian, Bhudist, Muslim or other - the doctrins differ, but the belief in one all-powerful being predominates their faiths.

  On the other hand, there are some who don't believe in any of this. There are questions that the religions can't answer. Again, man has 'outgrown' the previous religious beliefs. Our knowldge base has expanded, and a new system is required.

  What will that system be? I don't know, but I seriously doubt that in 1000 years that man will still be worshiping the same gods he does today. The point is that as we learn more, the writings of the past make less and less sense. Poof - there goes Jah, in comes someone else.
• 

  bboyneko

  in 1,000 years they will be worshiping me
• 

  sunstarr

  in 1,000 years they will be worshiping me

  Maybe they'll believe that they evolved from you. You'll be the next Neanderthal Man. Hoo-ray!
• 

  conflicted

  in 1,000 years they will be worshiping me

  I hopped in my time machine and snapped a pic of bboyneko's congregation. Count me out.
• 

  Rex B13

  >To see some Good Christian up here pounding his chest and announcing that some are above the Mire of Atheism makes me want to demand answers and explanations. How can anyone reconcile the horrors in the bible with an all-loving, all-knowing God?

  "The horrors" are in parts of the Jewish history. You did not live there, you do not have enough facts to judge anything.

  >My main point here is that many who believe the bible to be a man-made book of terrible tales reached that point after honest consideration of the material. As I have never seen credible explanations excusing the brutality and contradictions it leads me to believe that all our Good Chritian posters turn a blind eye to the ugliness and/or dismiss it as a "mystery" or some such nonsense.

  Some of it is a mystery! BTW, what great religious idea turns your crank. Why don't you enlighten us all with some N.O.W. version of God and a life in heaven?

  >I guess they've got balls like churchbells when it comes to criticizing those who don't believe as they do but they are all veritable eunichs when it comes to proving their beliefs are based on sound reasoning.
  Marvelling at those who are stuck in the Mire of Christianity--
  Julie, who is sure she'll get no satisfactory explanations THIS time either

  You haven't read a single book on my list that I keep giving out here. So you say you are seeking answers? PROVE IT. Start with 'Mere Christianity' by C.S. Lewis and then we'll walk you through the rest. What good does it do to chime in with a topic like this in a forum like this unless you are grandstanding?
  Where did you do your Bible research, Atheists Online? Oh, I know, you are a fan of Jan H., Alan F., Norm H. and Kent. Are they your guideposts for all of your beliefs?
  BTW, what kind of 'tidy explanations' would you expect when all we have are sketchy details about the events in question?
  Do you think that the writers of the different books of the Bible took dictation from God? Might their be a 'human element' factor in all of the inspired writings? For example, we have a barbarian world where a bedouin nation is trying to survive in a land surrounded by enemies. They deal with those enemies in a ruthless fashion just as any of us would if placed in similiar circumstances!
  One of your problems is that you think you are actually better than the people of 3000 years ago. None of us are any better and we are just one big disaster away from a return to this kind of life. Do you realize that?
  None of us are 'good' because our comparison is with Jesus and not with other humans.
  Furthermore, how can you expect to understand a being that is not even bound by time? How can you be so arrogant as to demand answers that you aren't capable of understanding? Really, none of us alive today have close to enough facts about the O.T. dispensation period to make any judgement at all.
  Another problem that you have is you expect God to have attributes that are pleasing to you and you ignore the rest. God is merciful, loving (enough to live as a man and die in agony, bearing our sins and offering salvation freely), just, vengeful, HOLY; which means, 'set apart' or 'unlike' any other.
  None of us are 'good' because our comparison is with Jesus and not with other humans.

  Until we are saved by accepting Christ, we are no more than objects of wrath, enemies and rebels against God. Like it or not, the Bible has the only explanation that fits the events of the world that we live in. The evidence that God walked the earth in the person of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming as to be an open and shut case. His resurrection proves 'every jot and titel' of the Bible, regardless of WHO likes it's contents.
  Anyone who believes they will get to heaven by 'being a good person' or that 'all religions lead to the same place' are sadly ignorant of just what the Bible teaches. ONLY a personal relationship with Christ will give anyone salvation, regardless of all other factors or ideas.
  God created us.
  God numbers our days.
  God calls us (or not) to serve Him, otherwise none would serve Him because of our fallen nature.

  Rex, who marvels at the lengths people will go to avoid any idea that they can be held accountable!
• 

  borgfree

  Utopian Reformist,

  I scanned a few other threads, I do not have the time to keep up with many of them, and I found that several are about this same subject. I had posted on one called 'heaven' but I had not read any of the one called 'God not only condoned mass murder, He ordered it'

  I found that they all seem to be saying about the same things. I think that some of my replys were even close to the same thing others have said. I am sorry if I have repeated someone elses thoughts.

  I have thought about the posts in this thread off and on all evening and I wish I could come up with some very insightful information, I am afraid that I cannot.

  After reading a lot of posts on this forum I keep having the feeling that many ex-jws here have been hurt very badly in their encounter of whatever length with the Watchtower Society. I have been myself. I also get the feeling that many here blame God for that hurt and blame Him for the deception and deceit that they have experienced from the Cult. That is where I differ with them.

  One of the last committee meetings I had while I was a JW was concerning a problem I had with another JW. I had been taught my entire life certain things from the WT. I was now asking the elders to uphold those teachings and insist that justice be done in my case, they would not. I was very angry about it and I made my feelings known to them. One of the elders had the nerve to say to me "you feel like Jehovah has let you down, don't you, you feel that He has failed you" my statement to the elder was "NO, I don't think that Jehovah has let me down, the organization has let me down, NOT Jehovah"

  I think the WT wants JWs to put the blame on God for their wrongs, after all they blame Him for their failings. In reading these posts I can see very plainly that many on this forum are very intelligent, far above me. I just wish they would put as much effort into thinking of reasons why God does what He does and how Creation must be true as they do trying to think of every reason they can to condemn God.

  God did not do it. The Watchtower Society did. I don't see anyway I can prove evolution wrong. I haven't seen anything yet to make me believe it is right. I saw a picture that someone posted (I forget who it was) It was supposed to be some prehistoric man. Why would we believe that? Because the skull was large with big eyes? Maybe that is proof that Martians were once here. Sorry, just had to say that. But really, there are deformities even today that I think would account for that skeleton.

  Scientists have been wrong many times, I do not know any statistics but I would bet that they are wrong about as much as they are right. And, many scientists do not believe evolution. I think even Einstein believed in a Creator. How about the Martian rock they found in the Artic? (I believe it was there) They make bold claims that that rock came from Mars many years ago, based on what? BS, I don't believe it.

  The bible has many prophesies. Time after time those prophesies have come true. Many prophesies were about the coming of the Messiah, they were all fulfilled. How could Jesus have controlled where He was born? and when He was born? How could He make the soldiers gamble over His clothing. How could He make the Jews offer Judas 30 pieces of silver, just the amount prophesied? On and on it goes, that is proof to me. Not scientists who have in the past falsified findings so that they would get the fame from a fake. I'll take the evidence supporting the Messiah, which supports the bible, which supports God.

  Answers to the many questions we can ask will not be answered by any man. Try asking the One who can answer.

  Borgfree

  "You can fool some of the people all of the time" especially if you are a member of the WT GB
• 

  JT

  Julie attempted to make a very simple point:

  I have seen assertions made that the bible portrays God as a homicidal maniac and these assertions are almost always backed up with scriptures. I have never, I repeat NEVER, seen one credible attempt to discredit these assertions.

  @@@@@@@@@@@@@@

  after i read thru all the post we are back were we started- after all is said and done the believers are still left at the gate saying"

  "God works in mysterious ways and you JUST GOT TO BELIEVE!!!!!!!!"

  SO WE SEE that once again when believers are qustioned about the conduct of thier "GOD" they are left giving their opinions and guesses

  they typical beleif system requires that it's following not question, which is very interesting being that most here are conected to wt where that same mindset of NOT QUESTIONING ANYTHING was the flavor of the day.

  If there is anything that i have learned coming out of wt is i can now Question anything i want to without the fear that so many believers have of "God will strike me down" mindset

  as has been pointed out so many times- I too have found very few believers who will just come on out and admit that the god of the bible had some wild stories going on in his book-

  my favorite is how he used a "Pimp" to rule his people

  Solomon according to the bible had over a 1000 "Coochies" he had to service- man that is a different "Coochie" everyday for almost 3yrs

  sounds like a High School boys fanitasy--

  just reading that story sounds like the writer was a member of the Playboy club that Hugh Helfer owns.

  many of the stories in the bible get so wild that you almost want to say "Who you kidding"
  but a believer is FORCED to try and make some sense out of material that if written in any other book but the bible they would think it is a joke

  i recall a thread when i first came to the net that was the perfect setup

  it described a father who let his kids get the SHAFT- AND ALL WERE asked what did they think of the kids old man-

  well almost every man and woman and believer DOGGED my boy, until THEY WERE TOLD THE OLD MAN WAS GOD

  man you should have seen the back peddle and word twisting and excuse making-

  just imagine if they were in court as members of the jury and could not see who was on trail just the evidence and charges against this person THEY WOULD CONVICT then as soon as they find out it is "GOD"

  they would hit REVERSE

  HOW SAD

  JAMES
• 

  Scorpion

  Conflicted,

  bboyneko's congregation, ROTFLMBO.