shocked as we watch each coffin come of the plane
Do you get to watch the coffins get unloaded? We don't.
Extra training ... so you know that shooting babies is WRONG ?!?
by Simon 146 Replies latest social current
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Panda
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Abaddon
Gregor
But name a country with even a fraction of the power that does a better job of governing with justice and still allows a free press to continue to expose its flaws, mistakes and, yes, its screw ups.
All the countries below have a fraction of the power of the USA, a free press, and less corruption; America comes in at 2.5 on the scale used, which is about half as corrupt as the global average.
#113 Ireland 2.5
#114 Belgium 2.4
#115 Germany 2.3
#116 Hong Kong 2
#117 Austria 2
#118 United Kingdom 1.3
#119 Canada 1.3
#120 Luxembourg 1.3
#121 Switzerland 1.2
#122 Australia 1.2
#123 Norway 1.2
#124 Netherlands 1.1
#125 Sweden 0.7
#126 Singapore 0.6
#127 New Zealand 0.5
#128 Denmark 0.5
#129 Iceland 0.4
#130 Finland 0.3http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/gov_cor-government-corruption
I couldn't find a satatistic for 'justice', so corruption will have to do as a measuring stick. As for America having a free press... well, yeah, sort of... but not as free as others. The US Press, for example, can't show footage of dead soldiers coffins being unloaded in the USA after the flight from Iraq or Afghanistan.
So, like 15 countires are 'better' in that way; you seem to have bought the propoganda about truth justice and the American way. That's a slogan dude! But maybe your high opinion of American justice is a reflection of your lack of knowledge about Europe and former British colonies. The USA on the other hand would have had Kenneth Lay as its Finance Minsiter if he hadn't been caught... LOL.
just2sheep
other countries don't need this country to breed their terrorists for them...so far they have been doing that on their on.
Learn some history. In the '50's Iran had its democratic government overthrown by a coup staged by Western powers, and a puppet king, the Shah, put in its place. He was the buddy of the West, and a bit of a tyrant. If the secular democratic government had been left in place, the religious extremists would of not been able to whip up discontent in the population, as a fair democratic government would have been in place. The rise of Iranian religious extremism to power is ENTIRELY due to the USA, the UK, and France.
Later, the US trained Osama to use against Soviet backed terrorists; active assistence to a terrorist by the US government to allow the pursit of extra-territorial aims. The US also funded and aided Saddam in the war against Iran, even though we knew he was a despotic pig, again, active assistance of a known civilian killer and despot to pursue extra-territorial aims. Sometimes you have to pay the piper; unfortunately those who made these plans are not the ones who will pay... bu anyway, stand up and accept your counties blame; I do.
in palistine it seems all they have done for thousands of years is breed and terrorize. always with god on their side and heavan as their reward.
Well, actually the Arabs lived quite happily in the Palestine for centuries. It was only after Europe dragged its way out of the dark ages they decided to go to war against the Muslims, who at the time regarded the Europeans as unwashed and uncivilised barbarians.
this world cannot end soon enough.
Ah, so all this killing isn't enough for you? You want everything to be blotted out, more death, death by the billion. What a ludicrous point-of-view. God protect me from religious nutters!
AlanF
Like most Americans, I and my family enjoy eating baby on special occasions. It's unfortunate that the meat is so expensive. We should petition the Bush administration to start an industry to cater to us.
Ah, come off it. We both know that's fallacious. Just because Simon is a bit hyperbolic and over-states his point doesn't mean the fair part of his criticism can be laughed off.
What you have to consider is things like a statement by a British soldier in Baghdad I saw on TV.
He said something along the lines of;
"The problem is the American troops have really lax rules of enagagement. Not one member of my troop has shot anyone in the past six weeks. The Americans shoot people every day."
If that is a fair representation of the situation, and not an 'apples and oranges' lacking in perspective, then it is obvious there is a systemic problem with how American troops are directed to conduct themselves.
I have seen American troops saying it is common to be told 'carry shovels or have some AK's handy; if you see someone by the side of the road you can shoot them. If it turns out they're not doing anything, throw the shovel or AK out and claim they were planting an IED'.
Relating to the massacre of 11 people after a GI was killed by a roadside bomb, I've seen a soldier who was apparently pinned under the damaged vehicle say his colleagues lost it and went on a killing spree.
A group of British MP's were torn to death by a mob in Iraq because they elected to try and hold the crowd off and wait for help (which didn;t come because of some tragic botch-up), rather than running for it and spraying the limited ammuniton they had into the crowd to clear a path and give them a headstart and half a chance.
Of course, some British troops have done bad things, and I've also seen coverage of American troops who were dedicated to bringing peace and treating the innocent as the innocent at risk to their own life. But on the evidence available it seems the philosophy of the two Armies is different, and the people who pay the price for the difference are the civilians.
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alamb
Rules of Engagement currently enforced by U.S. troops in Iraq:
They cannot fire first. They can watch an insurgient load a mortar and launch it, or pull a gun and point at them directly, but are not allowed to fire to stop these actions until the mortar is launched or the bullet leaves the chamber from the opposers gun, considering he isn't dead by this time.
If in doubt I can give e-mails of persons currently in Iraq for confirmation upon request. pm me.
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Gill
Panda - When the war started, there used to be set programming for when the planes landed, the coffins came off, and the soldiers were named. Then you would see the funeral cars taking each coffin, draped in a union jack to their burial. Sometimes you would see all the family there as well. Now, it tends to be that on the News programmes, you see the coffins arrive, and sometimes part of the funeral and family talking about their loved ones.
The sheer scale of loss of American troops in Iraq, and if each soldiers was followed like this, would bring home the wanton destruction taking place. If we then did the same for the Iraqis killed.....well.....
In the end, they're all someone's baby. What a tragedy.
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Abaddon
alamb
The verbal stements by US troops I have seen contradict the official line on R-O-E. It would seem the R-O-E are as they should be, but S-O-P is vastly different. Shooting people by the road in case they are a terrorist, and then planting a shovel on them if they're not a terrorist so they look like a terrorist is either an outright lie by a soldier or an indication commanding officers are giving out instructions that violate the rules of war, whilst claiming they follow proper R-O-E.
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Gill
alamb - These men and women are mentally damaged and in mortal danger. There's no time to think about Rules of Engagment made in some nice quiet office. They're fighting for survival and when we come down to that level, sadly, anything goes!!
What would you do if you were terrified, suffering horrific stress, have seen the most awful atrocities and were literally on the edge?!
We forget that these soldiers are human. There stress if no excuse for atrocities, but these acts can't be stopped until we understand that their minds are already operating on a different level to ours, sitting quietly at home on our computers, just chatting.
When a mind becomes overcome with fear and anxiety, it can crack irreperably.
Blame has to go where it belongs, 'To The Top'.
Who started this damned war in the first place?
Who thought that God had told him to invade Iraq?
Who is thinking about the possiblity of invading Iran?
Haven't the Americans suffered enough? Hasn't the world suffered enough?
There's no easy answer to any of this, except that it has to stop somewhere.
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glitter
I don't get why people are posting "Oh noes! Dresden! Oh noes! The British Empire!" - what has things done by Britain in the past got to do with American soldiers shooting babies and children in the head and stomach *recently*?
"You leader Tony Blair supports the war!!!!111" is similarly idiotic, just because our PM blindly follows Bush into an illegal *mess* of a war, it doesn't mean the British people support it; we aren't sheep. Do any of you know how many people out of the whole population of Britain actually voted for Blair at the last election? 2,400. -
Panda
Blame has to go where it belongs, 'To The Top'. Who thought that God had told him to invade Iraq?
So, ultimately it's god's fault. And further we should just blame religion ... which is, actually, fine with me.
Who is thinking about the possiblity of invading Iran?
Well apparently no one because after the last few days there will apparently be plenty of talking now.
Who started this damned war in the first place?
Saddam Hussein in Iraq. In Afghanistan, Osama bin fladen.
Haven't the Americans suffered enough
Apparently not because the Jihadists plan to annhilate ALL infidels; to destroy ALL of America; and finally to convert the people left alive or kill them too. There will be no ROE, no court of appeals, just slaughter and Mohammedism. Actually, Talibanism, so the oft quoted battle cry of "death to all Americans". And I just have to ask this question, even though it's been asked before ... would you have stopped Hitler or Stalin if you'd had the chance? Look how long it took the US to get into WW2 ... 6 million civilians killed because of their religion. -
glitter
Saddam started this war?
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Gill
We will NEVER be able to completely remove or destroy evil people or intentions. It's a constant maintenance job.
But, when we see that a building needs repairing, we don't go in and nuke it. We look at the different alternatives and then repair the problem.
Repairing Iraq, turned out to be a total slaughter on both sides.
Face it...it was done wrongly.
There must have been a better way.