SELF-SACRIFICE: the tool of the MYSTICS (page 3)

Terry

LMAO!!! This is the best belly laugh I've had all month!

You mean you don't read Little Toe's posts??

You're absolutely right that there are those ready to exploit any impulse of "spirituality" or altruism/self-sacrifice. Yes, altruistic behaviour is about attributing more worth to the collective than to the self, but I don't think that it always means the extreme that the individual is worthless unless they sacrifice themselves. That particular idea may be what those manipulators and exploiters want to foster among those who are prone to negative self-image, to more easily leech/live off them. I think that altruistic individuals with healthy self-images realize how much they can give of themselves and don't push it. They are also unlikely to get trapped into making outright parasites their beneficiaries.

Terry

I think that altruistic individuals with healthy self-images realize how much they can give of themselves and don't push it. They also won't get trapped in making outright parasites their beneficiaries.

Alas! In my experience I only meet the downside.

My son-in-law worked with the Federal arm of the government in administering aid to Hurricaine relief for New Orleans victims.

The stories he has told me are astonishing.

He spent four years in college to be a Social Worker and has now given it all up for food service instead!

His rosey view of humanity has taken the kind of slap in the face that shocked him to his core.

You have in the U.S. professional victims and ideologues whose job it is to crank up the guilt to extort money for the "needy".

Volunteerism is milked from idealists until they drop. Guilt-tripping is a skill.

There is little doubt in my mind there are many intelligent people who value human life and empathize with unexpected emergency necessities. They work on behalf of others to the extent those people affected cannot do for themselves.

But, this well--in many cases is bottomless NEED and the "victims" are inveterated to the midset of "you owe us because we have need". This group refuses to better themselves chasing the brass ring of charity.

Leaders in certain communities refuse to challenge the "needy" to education and advancement for themselves--instead they reinforce their weaknesses and encourage an attitude of entitlement so that they can retain power over them to extort on their behalf from rich corporations.

Can anybody say JESSE JACKSON?

Narkissos

Terry,

I think we have a semantic disagreement and not much more than that.

Sure, but as long as you keep describing the "mystic" in a mediating role (which s/he indeed can be tricked into assuming, but only by betraying the essence of "mysticism" which is about the immediate) what more can I say?

I can accept your definition of mysticism (against the dictionary's definition) for the sake of discussion. But then I'll have to add that you forget about a special type of mysticism, which I will provisionally call immediate mysticism (a pleonasm for me, not for you) and this mysticism refuses mediations, including its own on behalf of others.

To illustrate: when a "master" (like the Johannine Jesus or Hallaj) says "I am the truth," the religious disciple translates "he is the truth"; the mystic (or immediate mystic if you prefer) says "I am the truth". In principle, a system of power can be built on the former understanding, not on the latter.

Kid-A,

I didn't mean Freud himself linked the "death drive" with mysticism -- although his use of the term nirvana in this regard lends itself to such a development. Otoh I remember an interesting passage in Lacan's Ecrits which digs the connection a bit more -- he referred notably to the ancient saying about the Sibyl of Cumae who, when asked what she wanted, used to reply: apothanein thelô -- "I want to die."

However this is mostly my own reflection (which is prehaps more indebted to Nietzsche than to Freud here) fwiw. I personally believe mysticism (reverting to the common definition) to be deeply connected with our biological "death drive" -- being its paradoxical enactment in language, through silence and ek-stasis. The expression of a generally repressed craving to overcome separation -- which is reminiscent of both sex and death.

Terry

Sure, but as long as you keep describing the "mystic" in a mediating role (which s/he indeed can be tricked into assuming, but only by betraying the essence of "mysticism" which is about the immediate) what more can I say?
I can accept your definition of mysticism (against the dictionary's definition) for the sake of discussion. But then I'll have to add that you forget about a special type of mysticism, which I will provisionally call immediate mysticism (a pleonasm for me, not for you) and this mysticism refuses mediations, including its own on behalf of others.
To illustrate: when a "master" (like the Johannine Jesus or Hallaj) says "I am the truth," the religious disciple translates "he is the truth"; the mystic (or immediate mystic if you prefer) says "I am the truth". In principle, a system of power can be built on the former understanding, not on the latter

All well and good. No problem.

However....

Where are these immediate mystics?

I have no problem with flying pigs either; I just never see any!

Robdar

Where are these immediate mystics?
I have no problem with flying pigs either; I just never see any!

Hi there! Over here! Of course, you can't see me because I've taken my avatar down but it's so nice to meet you. BTW, I'm a mystic, not a flying pig. But I do want to learn to levitate. Does that count? Robyn

Midget-Sasquatch

Dammit Terry! I was trying to be less cynical and bitter about the world, vaunting the kumba ya aspects of true mysticism, but you just had to call alot of the ugliness out there to my attention didn't you?

I think I'll modify my position to this: that there are some altruists with healthy self-images that know when they should stop giving and when they can begin again....not because I don't want to concede your valid points...but because I also want to describe myself as one of those balanced altruists, and not admit that I'm just a stingy cold heartless bastard.

Terry

I think I'll modify my position to this: that there are some altruists with healthy self-images that know when they should stop giving and when they can begin again....not because I don't want to concede your valid points...but because I also want to describe myself as one of those balanced altruists, and not admit that I'm just a stingy cold heartless bastard.

The key point (from my standpoint) is that the sort of Altruist which you describe doesn't seem to be on planet Earth, but, exists only in our imagination as a logical potential.

A person who chooses to be charitable and make some sort of rational contribution to the welfare of others out an honest valuation of their potential to get back on their feet and fend for themselves rather than feeling compelled by duty or guilt or unworthiness is the person who acts as a selfish individual and not an altruist. Why, because they are not sacrificing themselves; the are INVESTING in the VALUE of others.

SO....these two designations are philosophically poles apart.

Midget-Sasquatch

A person who chooses to be charitable and make some sort of rational contribution to the welfare of others out an honest valuation of their potential to get back on their feet and fend for themselves rather than feeling compelled by duty or guilt or unworthiness is the person who acts as a selfish individual and not an altruist. Why, because they are not sacrificing themselves; the are INVESTING in the VALUE of others.

How that warms the cockles of my sociobiologically bent heart. That somewhere within our neurons, even not so deliberately or consciously, we're running cost-benefit algorithms to decide who we should aid and when.

In all seriousness though, that self-interested approach may very well have been the utilitarian basis from which some of our cooperative behaviours had evolved. So why not continue going with what works? The bums who just don't want to reciprocate, well they're their own downfall.

Back to the topic of self-sacrifice and mysticism, from what I've read about how it changed the experiencers, it may make them more prone to being suckered into giving up alot, but I don't see how it would typically result in them deliberately being the bloodsuckers

Satanus

Terry

I consider myself a mystic of sorts. I'm not self sacrificing, although i have been known to help out. I don't mediate people to god. I tell em to do their own damn selves. I don't want any followers. S

SELF-SACRIFICE: the tool of the MYSTICS

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