Say You're a Bethelite & Monitoring JWD - How Would You Feel About THESE??

by Seeker4 356 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  zarco

  Parakeet,
  
  You asked, How do you answer such questions? Do you encourage young people to do their own research, using non JW resources, regarding evolution and other topics that conflict with JW beliefs?
  
  I would encourage any aspiring young scientist to research on their own using all available resources. Obviously, JWs are not usually scientists nor does the scientific community have our perspective. Both camps must look at the debate through the other lens. Both sides of the debate get to a point where faith takes over - most scientists realize this, especially regarding the dating calculations and the original dispersion of energy. Personally I believe in a wise loving creator who in his wisdom used what many call micro evolution to finish his handiwork.
  
  Do you enforce or help enforce the no-blood policy when the issue comes up? How do you advise your cong members when they ask about blood or blood fractions? Do you believe that a loving god would value a symbol of life over life itself? If you disagree with the blood policy, how do you help those in your cong when they are faced with a life-or-death crisis?
  I would not enforce (if you mean the use judicial action) the no-blood policy. If you have access to the August Awake on blood you will notice that the use of all fractions is a "conscience matter". You will also notice a dramatic shift in thinking regarding extracted hemoglobin (HBOC) - while cautioning the individual to seriously consider the decision; it is left to the individual's conscience. If fractions are allowed, if HBOC is allowed and in the US witnesses in good standing have used platelets gels (platelets are a component of blood) to stimulate healing - there really isn't a blood issue anymore. In time the only remaining restriction will be ingesting whole blood. I realize that if you asked this question a few years ago I could have been painted into a corner, but in practice this issue is dieing a quick death.
  
  
  If any of your cong members suffer from depression, do you tell them to immerse themselves even more deeply in WTS literature and field service? Or do you advise them to seek qualified medical and psychiatric help? If they express doubts about the JW teachings, do you encourage them to explore those doubts and find answers for themselves? Or do you encourage them to "hang on" until the reforms you're hoping for are made (assuming reform comes about)?
  
  
  The mind is like any other part of the body, if you break your arm you go to a doctor to have it reset, the mind is no different if it is sick it needs qualified care. Many witnesses regularly avail themselves of such help. Additionally, I always encourage the full interchange of ideas it is the collective wisdom of many along with the scriptures that unveil the truth. If one had doubts that caused direct opposition to the organization, I would encourage them to begin a careful study of the issue, to focus on the points of agreement and to attempt to stay within the organization unless their study and conscience would not allow that.
  
  If a JW starts dating a non-JW, do you advise him/her to end it so as not to become yoked with "unbelievers"? When I started dating a non JW (now my husband for 30+ years), I was put on the platform before the entire cong and publicly humiliated. How would you handle a similar situation?
  
  
  I am sorry about the humiliation you suffered because of a stupid brother/body. Paul said to not become unevenly yoked. This can mean intellectually, emotionally, physically and spiritually. Too often we look only at the spiritual side of it. I would work with a person contemplating marriage to examine all aspects of the of such a yoke. I personally am not smart enough to help anyone decide whom to marry.
  
  I will write more at another time........

  Many congregations have a liberal body of elders that are learning and seeking and are not masters over your faith. I have been in two such congregations. I realize that in many congregations small minded men overcome their lack of intellect by enforcing the letter of the law, if a friend were caught in such a congregation I would hope they would try another before they decide to leave the organization.
  
  Jesus words to the congregations in Revelation suggest that there are many awful places that claim to worship Jah, but they are not all like that. And Jesus' examination of these congregations gives me hope that reforms will happen.
  
  
  Sincerely,
  
  zarco
• 

  daniel-p

  Zarco: Both camps must look at the debate through the other lens. Both sides of the debate get to a point where faith takes over - most scientists realize this

  Not to get off-topic, but this is a fallacy. Those who use this argument are ignoring the fact that religion has zero factual evidence to back up their claims and instead rely on their own and others' ignorance to support the claim that science requires faith. Science requires no faith - it is logic in the absence of faith - and that is why it has and always will be dangerous for those who base their worldview on faith, which is merely belief in the absence of evidence. Sceince takes me much farther than faith ever did. It gives so many more answers its rediculous. Sure, there is a point at which science cannot provide answers, but the beautiful thing is that someday it will. Faith cannot come close to doing that. There is nothing rewarding in believing something that has no evidence to back it up. If I choose to believe in evolution rather tan creation it is because there is evidence, theories which are held accurate when tested, and support everything else we already know about the universe. My previous belief in creation was based on zero evidence - and for that I was proud, thinking that belief in the absence of evidence was worth more than belief with evidence.
• 

  blondie

  I used to think it was only a few renegade elders or congregations that caused the problems. As a grew older and became more aware of the dynamics in many congregations in many areas and met members of the GB, I realized that the WTS is an entity really without a head.

  To illustrate: I am a government employee. I have seen department heads changed every year...but nothing changed internally. Some cosmetic things re policy and work rules, but nothing substantial. I have seen governors and presidents change, but the governmental process stays the same.

  I finally realized that no matter who the GB members were, very little changed because the WT entity, a force without a personality, runs things.

  Interestingly, I found the closer I got to the internal workings of Bethel, the less I believed that God and holy spirit had anything to do with it.

  I believe that there are members of the WTS that know very well that the WT organization is flawed and is a fake...but they have invested so much of their lives it is hard to leave or they are personally rewarded by staying through power or monetary gain (through business e.g.). It is like a cancer that has invaded and interwined itself in their major organs.

  But it is possible to leave; I was in 40 years before I woke up.

  I loved the comments about the WTS circular reasoning about it being from God...we have God's backing because we say so (in WT publications).

  So read here and learn and leave the WESAYSO Corporation.

  Blondie
• 

  zarco

  I would encourage you to go to any university and ask any scientist if they can prove the big bang therory. While you are at the university I would ask a proponent of string theory where their theroy breaks down mathmatically. Can micro evolution be proven - yes. Can macro evolution be proven, go and ask. I would be happy to engage you on this topic in another forum if you would like, but only after you ask to the two questions I suggest.
• 

  AlanF

  I want to throw something else into the mix here, to show current elders just what the Society thinks of them.

  Back in 1997 I went to the Society's headquarters in Brooklyn and eventually managed to convince an official named Harry Peloyan to meet with me in the lobby of the 25 Columbia Heights building. This building houses the Governing Body's offices, by the way. Peloyan (now deceased) was the editor-in-chief of Awake! magazine and the writer/compiler of various WTS books, including the 1985 Creation book. I went there to confront Peloyan about the many misrepresentations and misquotations in the Creation book.

  After a close to an hour and a half of discussion, during which Peloyan several times started to walk away but immediately returned to say more to me, usually of the nature of a personal attack, our conversation was nearly at an end. Then, out of the blue, Peloyan made some comments about elders. Without any prompting from me, he sort of lamented the fact that elders are very hard to control, and that despite the Society's best efforts they still go off and do what they want and often become much too hardnosed. I said that some of the recent Watchtower articles on elders were very good on this. I figured it was best not to point out, however, that the state of elders is a direct result of them being trained by the Society since the elder arrangement was first instituted, so what else could he expect? They were reaping what they sowed.

  What was particular interesting, and sad, was that this official blamed the elders themselves rather than the Society who trained them, for all the problems reported to the Society by the rank and file. In other words, the Society views elders as generally disobedient and incompetent. This is yet another case of Watchtower leaders not wanting to admit responsibility for creating a bad situation. This attitude also proves that WTS leaders don't really believe that elders are "appointed by holy spirit", that elders make decisions that merely reflect what has already been "bound in heaven", or that God really controls what elders do when acting in an official capacity. In other words, WTS officials view elders pretty much the same as does the community of ex-JWs.

  AlanF
• 

  zarco

  Blondie,

  I have read your posts for a long time and always appeciate them - especially the WT summary. I have used a comment or two from time to time, sorry that I didn't properly attribute the author :)

  I see too much good to leave and others see too much bad to stay. Jesus said by their fruits you would recognize them. If the fruits in the congregation I attend are truly good in a Christain sense, how can I leave. That is not meant as a question just stating why I will stay. Didn't Jesus say in Revelation that he examines the Congregations? If he examined ours I think we would pass. If he were to examine the UN, the disfellowshipping, the shunning, parts of the blood issue, some in the organization would not pass. I look forward to that.

  Your point about heads changing and no real change happen is true - at least in my experience - but can't we change those around us for the good. You are a force for good on this board. I choose to be a force for good in another forum.

  zarco
• 

  daniel-p

  I would encourage you to go to any university and ask any scientist if they can prove the big bang therory. While you are at the university I would ask a proponent of string theory where their theroy breaks down mathmatically. Can micro evolution be proven - yes. Can macro evolution be proven, go and ask. I would be happy to engage you on this topic in another forum if you would like, but only after you ask to the two questions I suggest.

  I am already at a university although I am not a science major. I'm sure you can engage in constructive debate with those who are more knowledgable about big bang or string theory or whatever at a later date. My point was that science has given many more answers than faith ever could. The very implication of faith is to suspend questioning, or rational thought. In such a state, a person can be taken advantage of and led anywhere. I understand your situation, I think, and apreciate what your'e going through. I first started questioning the righteousness of the WTS about a year ago. I had pioneered and been at Bethel for a while and saw the organization working from many different angles. After I finally concluded that the org. was beyond having God's Holy Spirit, I slowly began to question more fundamental things that I had been taught, namely, the Bible as the Word of God. I am now an agnostic and pretty happy being one. I eventually had to face the extremely painful inevitable: that this Hebrew/Christian God Jehovah was not righteous. He is a god that does not allow questioning, nor holds himself or his servants accountable. That is a dangerous god to believe in. It was scriptures like Matt. 10:34-39 which eventually turned me away from God in my heart. No God that demands what Matt 10:34-39 demands is a loving god who understands human nature. Anyway, I wish you all the best in your, what will be most likely, a very short crusade fighting the growing evils in the organization. Don't let them steal your soul in the process.
• 

  MsMcDucket

  would encourage you to go to any university and ask any scientist if they can prove the big bang therory. While you are at the university I would ask a proponent of string theory where their theroy breaks down mathmatically. Can micro evolution be proven - yes. Can macro evolution be proven, go and ask. I would be happy to engage you on this topic in another forum if you would like, but only after you ask to the two questions I suggest.

  Zarco, that's the age old question is it? Hasn't been answered in centuries. So, the solution is God. There must be a God. Where did God come from? You are scared to ask that question aren't you?

  I think that's what you really want to know. No one can answer that question, not even the Watchtower. Either you believe in God are you don't. What's the RIGHT way to worship him? The Watchtower says "In truth and light". The Watchtower hasn't had TRUE light ever. You've got to start looking at your religion and investigating your religion. If you still believe it's The Truth then stay; if not, get out.

  You don't want Jesus to say to you "Get thee away from me because I never knew you.". Do you?
• 

  zarco

  AlanF,

  And many elders and students of God's word do not believe everything the faithful slave says. I imagine that when you were an elder you questioned policy and did what you thought was right. It is the truth that matters, not who is dispensing it.

  Do you beleive that Jesus examination of the congregations is a future event, a current event or past event?

  zarco
• 

  Seeker4

  Zarco,

  Thanks for your postings on here. A lot of us have been where you are. It will be interesting to see where you are in another year or so. I tried to stay a JW to be a force for good in what I felt was a really good congregation with a lot of people that I still love very much. It didn't work for me. But, like I commented earlier in this thread, I have an ex-CO friend who is trying to do what you're doing, and seems to still be in.

  AlanF:

  I remember reading that experience with you and Harry. I've heard similar comments about the elders in general from Merton Campbell, Fred Rusk and others in high positions.

  S4