Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus 396 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  james_woods

  I once debated this topic with none other than Ed Dunlap.

  He had problems with "divinity of Christ" & "Trinity" just as most of us do who come from the anti-christian environment of the Witnesses.

  I asked questions mostly, and he posed potential answers. He finally came down to this simple statement -

  "There is really NOTHING that we know about GOD (Jehovah) EXCEPT what we have learned about him from Jesus Christ. Moses does not matter, the OT does not matter, the war-god Jehovah does not matter. This (Jesus Christ) is as close to a look at the real God as mankind can ever come while here on the physical earth."

  Not to say this is exactly what I believe, but I sure thought old Ed had a succinct way of solving an ages old problem for Christians.

  James
• 

  Mondo1

  Context is the key. In Genesis 1-2 we have an established context within which elohim is used. There is no basis for arguing that elohim refers to one other than whom it contextually refers to, so I have to reject this idea. So contextually, I cannot see how one could conclude that without a theological pressuposition. Of course I will grant such if you can provide a contextual indicator for such a change, but I have not come across one.
• 

  LittleToe

  IMHO Genesis is a broad brushstrokes story of how we got here.

  "Let us make man in our image" seems to open up some leeway to consider this approach. It's not explicit as to who "God" is speaking to. It could be rhetorical, to the Son, by the Son, to the Angels, or something else entirely that the bible doesn't elaborate on.

  A plain reading of it would seem to indicate that whoever the "God" is, in this text, He has contemporaries. For this reason many view this as a Polytheistic text, though Trinitarian and Unitarian alike would reject this.
• 

  lovelylil

  I happen to agree with LT on this. He has made some really good points. Lilly
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  Mondo1

  My point is that elohim seems to be used consistently in the context to refer to one individual. What you seem to be suggesting is that elohim change from refering to one individual to another... I can't see how "let us" justifies that.
• 

  Ade

  Hi
  
  Elohiym, el-o-heem'
  As a plural of Eloahh, ( a diety or the deity God );elohiym, gods in the ordinary sense;(but specifically used in the plural;thus with the article)of the supreme God; occasionally used by way of defence magistrates;and sometimes as a superlative:- Angels,X,Exceeding, gods ,Godesses,( X) very, greatly, judges.
  
  ive just left this, as in this age old argument no one ever wins and so i bid you well
  Ade
• 

  LittleToe

  I see what you're saying, however my point is that the terms "us" and "our" are plural, hinting to at least one other person to whom "God" (whoever that is, in this particular text) is speaking in a contemporary fashion. Add to this the indistinction over the plurality of Elohim and I find I have to give the Polytheists their place. I disagree with their position, but I have to accept that it's one potentially reasonable reading of the text.

  Let's not forget that Genesis is a compilation of possibly around ten previous works. Genesis one and two are clearly two creation accounts stitched together, for example. "Who Wrote the Bible" has an interesting insight to offer, to suggest how this might be teased apart. I wouldn't say it's definitive, but it's certainly food for thought.
• 

  LittleToe

  Ade:
  The secret is to stop competing and just enjoy the discussion and perspectives. That way no-one wins or loses
• 

  james_woods

  Would it be going too far afield to speculate what might have happened if the horrible old pope had not called that council, froze the books of the bible, and settled the beef between Arius and Athanasius?

  Look at how few and far between "One Warlike Jehovah Worshipper" people are today compared to the rest of Christianity...and how much they diminish the being of the Christ. Up to the point of claiming he had children and that they are somehow his distinct offspring (i.e. - the "holy grail").

  Every bit as silly as the dreaded TRINITY, IMHO.

  As Little Toe said, nobody ever really wins this one.
• 

  Mondo1

  I don't see how you can do as much. The plural elohim does nothing for polytheism, when the singular is used with the plural to demand the use of the majestic plural. The "us" "our" use shows only that the elohim is talking to one other than that elohim, so the same would be true.