Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus 396 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  LittleToe

  The plural elohim does nothing for polytheism, when the singular is used with the plural to demand the use of the majestic plural.

  You're assuming that everyone reads it as a majestic plural. Some don't. They read it as a simple plurality of persons/Gods.

  The "us" "our" use shows only that the elohim is talking to one other than that elohim, so the same would be true.

  The same is not always true, because it is no stretch to consider that the Elohim speaking might be talking to another Elohim, since man is made in "their" image. Can you see how some can "do as much" now? There's more than one way to cut a radish.
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  Mondo1

  The text itself rules out any type of true plural reading by the use of singulars for the plurals.

  Further, the context never indicates that another elohim is spoken of or that the speaker changes or the performer of the action(s) change. With nothing to show this, such a conclusion is without basis.
• 

  LittleToe

  At this point I must disagree with you. If those weren't variant possibilities, such interpretations wouldn't exist. No doctrine exists in a vaccum. Neither can you call on a breadth of scripture for one point, and then discard that method in favour of singularly reading another scripture and claim it self-supporting. Such an approach lacks consistency!

  I'll put to you the question that was proposed to me by one of my Bible Studies, once: "You surely aren't so bigoted as to believe that your viewpoint is the only possible one, are you?"
• 

  Ade

  LT,
  the greyhound doesnt know hes competing, he just follows the rabbit >;)
  
  
  
  
  Ade
• 

  M.J.

  Sorry if this has been brought up, (haven't read all, what? 19 pages yet)

  But consider how the following verses may fit into the mix:

  (Isaiah 45:11-12) 11 This is what Jehovah has said, the Holy One of Israel and the Former of him: "Ask me even about the things that are coming concerning my sons; and concerning the activity of my hands YOU people should command me. 12 I myself have made the earth and have created even man upon it. I—my own hands have stretched out the heavens, and all the army of them I have commanded."

  (Isaiah 44:24) 24 This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you from the belly: "I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me?
• 

  Mondo1

  MJ,

  In John 5:30 Jesus said: "I do nothing by himself." So the God of Isaiah who does it by himself can't be Jesus. The fact is that God made use of his own creation to further create. It all was attributed back to God, for he used what he himself made. In context, the point is that there were no other gods like himself who did this. It does not rule out the use of his own creation (gravity, gasses, etc) in creating these things, and so it does not rule out the use of Jesus either.

  Mondo
• 

  LittleToe

  Since Jesus clearly "does it", it's evident that no-one else does it by themselves, either. How do you then reconcile such a paradox, without reverting to a doctrine such as the Trinity?
• 

  Kenneson

  Mondo1,

  "It does not rule out the use of his own creation (gravity, gasses, etc.) in creating these things..."

  Like in evolution?
• 

  acadian

  It doesn't matter ! Did Jesus make a big deal as to who he was? No. Jesus is this, Jesus is that, Jesus is probably shaking his head right now, thinking man, they really missed the point of my visit didn't they? It all boils down to what the whole law hangs on, nothing else really matters. For around 2000 yrs man has argued about this, fought wars and cause'd all sorts of havoc, all because of what some believe to be the truth, or not. But sadly missing the point of Jesus teaching's. It's all meant to dtstract you from what you really should be doing. Taking care of all that is around you, the earth and it's inhabitents Peace Acadian
• 

  M.J.

  In John 5:30 Jesus said: "I do nothing by himself." So the God of Isaiah who does it by himself can't be Jesus. The fact is that God made use of his own creation to further create. It all was attributed back to God, for he used what he himself made. In context, the point is that there were no other gods like himself who did this. It does not rule out the use of his own creation (gravity, gasses, etc) in creating these things, and so it does not rule out the use of Jesus either.

  So...Jesus is essentially a "nobody", an inanimate object? Or does "I" refer to a unity of the two persons in question?