Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus 396 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Getting testy, aren't we?

    Years ago when I used to work in the trades we had a saying: "architects come up with fantastic schemes, but it's the joiners / carpernters that make it work". So often we would have plans handed down to us with staircases protruding through a roof or something else equally obscure. It was our job to put it into action, ammending it as necessary to create something that worked and was aesthetically pleasing. Sometimes we were the ones who commissioned the architects, on behalf of a customer. Ultimately, though, we were the ones who built the house.

    For all you argue the semantics, the NT clearly identifies Christ as our maker and creator. You can strain out the gnat and gulp down the camel, but your rigid refusal to bend the knee and kiss the Son will have an ultimate price to pay. A so-called "Christian" framework of belief that doesn't have Christ completely at the centre is psychologically damaging, as the very foundation is shaky You may not want to acknowledge that consciously, but sub-consciously it's wreaking havoc with your inner workings. One day the wheel will fall off.

    And that's about all I gotta say about that...

  • Mondo1
    Mondo1

    I was thinking the same thing about you with your "absurd" comment. I merely replied in kind. You did nothing in this most recent post but do a broken record. You said that "the NT clearly identifies Christ as our maker and creator." Well I already demonstrated otherwise. Never is Christ given the title of "Creator" and never is he shown to be the source of creation. He is always seen as the intermediate agent. God was not merely the architect, but he was the source of it all. (1Cor. 8:6) Hence only he is ever, Biblically, given the "creator" title. Jesus is, at most, Scripturally called "a master worker" or "chief architect". (Prov. 8:30)

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    I see you're sidestepping the points I made in my previous post.

    Who breathed into Adam's nostrils, for example?

  • Mondo1
    Mondo1

    You didn't make a point! You are attempting to disregard the irrefutable evidence of grammar. God breathed life into Adam. Notice God said "let us MAKE" but only "HE" created. The one that created, the Father, did it, Christ merely served in an intermediate role... what exactly what included in that role we are not told, but perhaps it was to set forth how the creation might appear, and hence some translations render Prov. 8:30 as "chief architect."

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    I actually made several points, but you appear to be back in evasion mode. But setting aside the other points for a moment; I thought you were agreeable to the "Word" being the intermediary in everything that was made? So, don't hide behind semantics and broad or narrow definitions of the title "God" - talk straight - was it the Father who actually breathed life into Adam, or did the Word?

    Don't forget to include John 1:1-3; Col.1:15; and Heb.1:2 in your answer, now...

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Mondo1,

    The words of Psalms 102:25 are applied to Jesus in Heb. 1:10, indicating He is Creator.

    Not only is Jesus the Chief Artisan, then, but moreover, if Prov. 8:30 speaks of Jesus as the "Chief Architect," He is also the one who furnished the Father with the plan of creation.

  • Mondo1
    Mondo1

    Kenneson,

    Hebrews 1:10 is within the context of 1:2, which shows intermediacy, especially in light of Prov. 3:19.

  • Mondo1
    Mondo1

    Well God is the one that said let us make.... and he is the one that created, not only "made." Obviously the different verbs were used intentionally. So obviously, the specific act of creating Adam was God, not Jesus. Now it would be the same "he" that breathed into him the breath of life, naturally, so again, it would be the Father. Clearly, the Logos played some type of role per Joh. 1:3, Col 1:16, but the role was included within the semantic range of "make" but not of "create."

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Mondo1,

    Could you enlighten us as to what the Father "created" and the Logos "made?"

  • Mondo1
    Mondo1

    The point is simply that the semantic range for "made" is wider than "create" and only the Father is expressly said to "create" and only he is identified with the title "creator." Beyond what Scripture says I couldn't tell you, but it does tell us this much.

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