Revelation 1.17 Jesus divinity? Or just "the first" raised from the dead"?

by Hellrider 239 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    On the question of the biblical teaching that Jesus was the firstborn from the dead, various Bible writers are very clear on this:

    Acts 26: 23 that the Christ was to suffer and, as the first to be resurrected from the dead, he was going to publish light both to this people and to the nations.”
    1 Cor 15: 20 However, now Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death]. 21 For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence.
    Col 1: 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things;
    Rev 1: 5 and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The firstborn from the dead,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.” To him that loves us and that loosed us from our sins by means of his own blood—

    I think that's quite clear.

    The Witness reference Bible points out that in Rev 1:17 the word "first" in the phrase "first and last" has a significant early variant. In the codex Alexandrinus the text here reads "firstborn and last" - making an even stronger connection with Jesus being the "firstborn from the dead" as mentioned in verse 5. (How old is the Alexandrinus again? I don't think it's any later than the 6th century) Early copies of Revelation are very scarce for some reason, so this early variant may be even more significant than its age would suggest.

    Slim

  • Mondo1
    Mondo1

    Slim,

    Good point. While it is not the proper rendering, what it shows at the very least is that the early church, in some parts, understood the title related to the resurrection.

    Mondo

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Hellrider....You can find similar examples throughout the Asian epistles (ch. 1-3). In 1:6, the doxology "to whom be glory and power forever (autó hé doxa kai to kratos eis tous aiónas)" is directed to Christ, whereas originally it was directed to God (cf. 4 Maccabees 18:24, Galatians 1:5, Romans 11:36, etc.). The tade + legei + DN formulae in 2:1, 8, 12, etc. is modelled on the tade legei kurios "thus says the Lord" formula in the LXX (as a translation of "Thus says Yahweh"). In 2:23, Jesus claims omniscience by saying "I am the one who searches mind and heart" and follows this up by saying "I will repay each of you in accordance with your deeds"; both of these statements derive from Jeremiah 17:10 in which Yahweh makes these statements (cf. Revelation 22:12, which has the "Alpha and Omega" make the same statement).

    hO WN is not simply a claim to deity, but as with many Trinitarian grammatical claims, the same is used for the crowd in John 12:17.

    Mondo1....John 12:17 is totally irrelevant because ho ón is not titular there, it is simply used to construct a relative clause (ho okhlos ho ón met' autou, "the crowd the (one) being with him, i.e. the crowd that was with him"). An everyday, prosaic use of a phrase does not prevent it from being used in a non-prosaic way. A non-prosaic use of ho ón in John 12:17 would have been something like this: "The One Who Is (ho ón, used by itself as a subject) was with him when he called Lazarus from the tomb and raised him from the dead". It is this kind of use that is suggestive of deity because of God's declaration to Moses in Exodus 3:14 LXX: "I am ho ón (egó eimi ho ón)" and the titular use in the same verse: "You must say to the sons of Israel, 'ho ón has sent me to you (ho ón apestalke me pros humas)' ".

    The titular use of (egó eimi) ho ón is especially well-attested in Philo of Alexandria, who calls ho ón God's "proper name" (onomati kaleitai) in De Abrahamo 121, who mentions its revelation in Exodus 3:14 numerous times (De Vita Mosis 1.75, De Somniis 1.231, De Mutatione Nominum 11-12, etc.), and who elaborates the title as ho ón autos di' heautou monou "the one who exists himself by himself alone" (Quod Deus Sit Immutabilis 110), or ho ón ontós "the one who truly exists" (De Opificio Mundi 172), or ho theos ón "the God who exists" (Quis Rerum Divinarum 206). Further evidence of ho ón as a title for God among Greek-speaking Jews can be seen in the LXX version of Jeremiah which inserts it as a term of address in prayers (cf. Jeremiah 1:6, 4:10, 14:13, 39:17 LXX), e.g. "And I said, 'O he who is, Master, Lord (ho ón despota kurie), ...' " (1:6), and there is a Jewish inscription in Pergamon that addresses God as theos kurios ho ón eis aei "God, the Lord who exists forever" (cf. the similar use of ho zón in Revelation 1:17-18). The Greek magical papyri, which collect together many different titles and divine names, use the phrase in a similar manner, e.g. "The God who is, Iao, Lord Almighty" (ho theos ón, ho Iaó, kurios pantokratór)" (PGM 71.3-4). In Revelation the expanded binary "the one who is and who was" and the tripartite "the one who is and who was and who is coming" are clearly used as divine titles (1:4, 8, 4:8, 11:17, 16:5).

  • Mondo1
    Mondo1

    Leolaia,

    Forgive me, I thought you were making a sweeping generalization, as I have found common with Trinitarian "apologetics." I really, in total, fail to see what you are getting at though, as it is used of the Father in Revelation 1:8 (and the other places where the statement is repreated), not Jesus Christ.

    Mondo

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    While it is not the proper rendering, what it shows at the very least is that the early church, in some parts, understood the title related to the resurrection.

    Right, but that does not negate the longstanding relation of the title to the exclusive Lord God of Deutero-Isaiah, nor the multiple links to OT divine language in the phrasing used in Revelation 1:17-18 (indeed, throughout ch. 1-3). Both are connected indeliably.....Christ's exalted status is explicitly related to his resurrection as it is in Colossians 1:15-20, which similarly ties his post-resurrection exalted status as sovereign of the universe with his pre-incarnate status as "before all things", e.g. as "First and Last". See my original comment above which discusses how the author has the resurrection in mind in his exalting of Christ, and how this does not deprive the theologically-loaded language of its natural divine connotations. In other words, it is not "either / or" but "both," and it is "both" because the two are tightly linked together, as Revelation13:8 succinctly shows.

    Forgive me, I thought you were making a sweeping generalization, as I have found common with Trinitarian "apologetics." I really, in total, fail to see what you are getting at though.

    I was simply responding to your sweeping generalization, in which you claimed that ho ón "is not simply a claim to deity," citing an irrelevant John 12:17. That's about as sweeping as a generalization gets. Hence my response, where I showed examples where it is used as "a claim to deity".

    as it is used of the Father in Revelation 1:8 (and the other places where the statement is repreated), not Jesus Christ.

    Yes, but I mentioned it because it is another example of double-entendre....of how this divine epithet ("the one who is and who was") is reinterpreted in the parody of the Beast, with the "was" and "is not" meaning "who lived" and "who no longer lives (i.e. dead)", and with the Beast parodying the death and resurrection of Christ (cf. 13:3). The divine language inherent in the phrase still has its connotative force, as it highlights the blasphemous nature of the Beast and how it falsely presents itself as God (cf. 13:6, 13:14-15).

  • Mondo1
    Mondo1

    Leolaia,

    I have to be brief as I am headed out. It is your (false) assumption that Jesus' words of Revelation 1:17 are to be connected to Isaiah, when in fact they are not. The entire point is that it is in the resurrection that Christ the first and the last, not in all eternity. Christ as "before all things" is an allusion to Jewish Wisdom speculation, where Wisdom was considered to be "created before all things," and not a reference to him as sovereign. As such, Colossians 1:17 has no bearing on the use of "the first and the last" for God within Isaiah.

    Finally, for my reply, a generalization requires only a generalization to be disproven, hence my generalization was a response to what I understood to be your own. If I had understood you correctly, mine would have been sufficient. Now that I see I didn't, I actually have no need to reply because I did not see anything that was necessary to be objected to.

    Mondo

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    Leolaia:

    that does not negate the longstanding relation of the title to the exclusive Lord God of Deutero-Isaiah, nor the multiple links to OT divine language in the phrasing used in Revelation 1:17-18 (indeed, throughout ch. 1-3). Both are connected indeliably.....Christ's exalted status is explicitly related to his resurrection as it is in Colossians 1:15-20, which similarly ties his post-resurrection exalted status as sovereign of the universe with his pre-incarnate status as "before all things", e.g. as "First and Last".

    Excellent!! True scholarship.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    It is your (false) assumption that Jesus' words of Revelation 1:17 are to be connected to Isaiah, when in fact they are not.

    It's not an assumption, it's recognizing the intertext latent in the passage. See Allison 2000:1-24 (Intertextual Jesus) for criteria on distinguishing intertextual allusions: (1) The history of interpretation either enhances or diminishes the plausibility of a proposed allusion. If text A has reminded commentators of text B, the odds that it was designed to do so are increased. This criterion is fulfilled....cf. Eusebius, Commentarius in Isaiam, 34, who relates the "First and the Last" title of Isaiah 44:6 to both the "First and the Last" title in Revelation and the "Alpha and Omega" title. (2) An allusion is credible only if there is some combination of common vocabulary, word order, themes, structure, etc. Again, this criterion is fulfilled. In Revelation there is a combination of (egó + eimi) + prótos + kai + eskhatos. Between the three uses of the "First and Last" title in Deutero-Isaiah, we have egó + protos in Isaiah 41:4, 44:6 LXX, egó + eimi + prótos in 48:12 LXX, prótos + eskhatos in 44:6 LXX-Hex. and 41:4 Th (as tois eskhatois), and coordination with kai in all examples. The similarity is closer with the Hebrew MT, 'ny r'shwn w-any 'chrwn "I [am] first and I [am] last" (44:6). Note that the similarity isn't simply the title "First and Last" but that it is associated with the first person verb eimi and/or egó "I" (= 'ny and 'ny-hw' in 48:12 MT). In addition to the use of the same vocabulary and order, there is also a thematic link: the title is self-claimed by a divine speaker, and it is associated in its literary context of with a set of divine titles and phrases with divine connotations. (3) The parallel is only corroborative when not commonplace. This criterion is again fulfilled. The title "First and Last" as well as its association with egó or egó eimi is not a commonplace but instead is found only in Isaiah 41-48 in all earlier literature, and later references to this title have in mind either Revelation or Isaiah. (4) The probability that one text intentionally recalls another is increased if the latter is prominent in the tradition of the former. This criterion is again fulfilled, since Revelation is heavily dependent on not only Isaiah but also the other OT prophets; in fact, Revelation is the most allusive book in the NT, so allusions are the norm, not the expection. Other uses of Isaiah include Revelation 2:17 (= Isaiah 62:2, 65:15), 3:7 (= Isaiah 22:22), 3:9 (= Isaiah 43:4, 60:14), 5:10 (= Isaiah 61:6), 6:15-16 (= Isaiah 2:10-19), 7:16-17 (= Isaiah 4:5-6, 25:4-5, 49:10), 14:8 (= Isaiah 51:17), 14:10 (= Isaiah 34:9-10), 14:19 (= Isaiah 63:2-6), 19:3 (= Isaiah 34:10), 19:11 (= Isaiah 19:11), 19:13, 15 (= Isaiah 63:1, 3), 21:1 (= Isaiah 65:17), 21:3-4 (= Isaiah 8:8, 25:8), 21:23-26 (= Isaiah 60:3, 11), etc. Finally, (5) recognition of an allusion is improved if the intertext enhances the thematic meaning of the later text in a congruent manner. This criterion is more subjective, but it also is easily fulfilled. The title "First and Last" is used in Isaiah 44:6 in a polemic against idolatry, emphasizing that other gods do not exist (v. 6b, 8, 9ff) and stressing that only God "foretells the future" (v. 7), and that his followers will have his name written on themselves (v. 4-5). Similarly, the title "First and Last" is used in Revelation to establish the divine authority of the prophetic vision (1:17-19, "I am the First and the Last ... now write down all that you see of present happenings and things that are still to come") which warns specifically against idolatry and false prophecy (2:13-15, 20-22; cf. 13:14-17) and which claims that true followers would have God's name written on themselves (2:17, 3:12; cf. 7:4, 14:1). Thus, it is not an "assumption" that Deutero-Isaiah is alluded to in the "First and Last" titles in Revelation, it is just as secure as the scores of other allusions in Revelation. What is unsupported is your claim that it is "fact" that no literary connection exists.

    The entire point is that it is in the resurrection that Christ the first and the last, not in all eternity.

    What support is there that the latter connotation is excluded in Revelation? You see, your reading admits no import of the original OT connotation of the term, as if the death/resurrection meaning is the only one that matters in the text. But this is hardly the case when the author associates "First and Last" with other divine epithets and doxologies (ho zón, zóneis tous aiónas tón aiónón, autó hé doxa kai to kratos eis tous aiónas, etc.) that otherwise refer to God in liturgy and in earlier literature, and one of which (zóneis tous aiónas tón aiónón) explicitly highlights God's eternity. As I pointed out twice already, the author intentionally links the death/resurrection of Jesus with the original beginning of the cosmos: Jesus is the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world (apo katabolés kosmou)" (13:8); cf. 1 Peter 1:18-20: "You were ransomed ... with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without defect or blemish, destined before the foundation of the world (pro katabolés kosmou)". Similarly, the title "First and Last" is recast as "Beginning and End (hé arkhé kai to telos)" in Revelation 22:13, and the use of arkhé here evokes the designation of Christ as hé arkhé tés ktiseós tou theou "the beginning of the creation of God" in 3:14, a title that again is oriented to Christ's original role in the world's beginning. Compare Theophilus of Antioch: "He is called Beginning (arkhé) because he leads and dominates everything fashioned through him" (Ad Autolycum 2.10). These titles have in view BOTH roles of Christ and stress the present authority and deity of Christ in his exaltation.

    Christ as "before all things" is an allusion to Jewish Wisdom speculation, where Wisdom was considered to be "created before all things," and not a reference to him as sovereign.

    Allusion, hey....interesting that here you are not dismissive of allusion as you were with respect to the title "First and Last". Yes, there is a direct link with Jewish-Christian wisdom/memra speculation which reified God's intelligence/mind/utterance/reason/etc. as a hypostasis of God....usually not as an equal or independent being (because of monotheism, and because God inherently has wisdom within himself), but as a hypostasis nevertheless, as "pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty" and "reflection of the eternal light", and "untarnished mirror of God's power" (Wisdom 7:25-26; cf. Hebrews 1:3), or in the qualitative sense of John 1:1, "what Wisdom is, God is" (cf. John 1:5 = Wisdom 7:30; compare also John 1:18, 3:35, 5:19, 21-22, 6:46, 8:19, 10:38, 14:9-11), and in Revelation by God's purpose the exalted Christ is entitled to the titles and privileges and authority that are traditionally ascribed to God: "To the one sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be all praise, honor, glory and power, forever and ever" (5:13). The ascription of omniscience and eternity to Christ is part of the author's offering of praise.

    I pointed out the parallels in Colossians 1:15-20 because they strikingly connect Jesus' exalted status as sovereign of the universe with his original role in creation. He is "before all things" in two ways. "All things were created" in him and through him and for him (v. 15-16), this pertains to the pre-incarnate Christ, and "he holds together all things ... all things are reconciled" through him and for him (v. 17, 20), this pertains to the exalted Christ. This is very similar to the way the title "First and Last" (which is used to refer to "the beginning" in Isaiah 41:4, and which pertains to the "laying of the foundations of the earth and spreading out of the heavens" in Isaiah 48:12-13) is used in Revelation to associate Jesus' death and resurrection with original creation. The sovereignty of Jesus is paramount in Colossians 1:18 ("in everything he has the supremacy") and in Revelation 1-3 ("ruler of the kings of the earth," in 1:5, "to him be glory and power forever and ever" in 1:6, "authority to rule them with an iron sceptre" in 2:27-28, "I became victorious and took my place with my Father on his throne" in 3:21).

    As such, Colossians 1:17 has no bearing on the use of "the first and the last" for God within Isaiah.

    Of course, because Colossians is not the text that is allusive of Deutero-Isaiah. It does tho have some weight in interpreting Revelation which has several parallels with the Christ hymn in Colossians. In fact, David Aune among other scholars suspects some influence from Colossians on Revelation because the letter circulated in Asia Minor, including Laodicea (cf. Colossians 4:16; cf. the letter to Laodicea in Revelation 3:14-22), and because of multiple similarities in phrasing, cf. [1] "firstborn of the dead" (prótotokos tón nekrón) in Revelation 1:5 vs. "firstborn from the dead" (prótotokos ek tón nekrón) in Colossians 1:18, [2] "beginning of the creation of God" (hé arkhé tés ktiseós tou theou) in Revelation 3:14 vs. "firstborn of all creation" (prótotokos pasés ktiseós) in Colossians 1:15 and "who is the beginning (hos estin hé arkhé)" in 1:18, etc. This does not necessarily mean that the two writings share the same perspective, but where there is congruence the similarities are noteworthy.

    Finally, for my reply, a generalization requires only a generalization to be disproven, hence my generalization was a response to what I understood to be your own. If I had understood you correctly, mine would have been sufficient. Now that I see I didn't, I actually have no need to reply because I did not see anything that was necessary to be objected to.

    Understood....I think.

  • Mondo1
    Mondo1

    (1) The history of interpretation either enhances or diminishes the plausibility of a proposed allusion. If text A has reminded commentators of text B, the odds that it was designed to do so are increased. This criterion is fulfilled....cf. Eusebius, Commentarius in Isaiam, 34, who relates the "First and the Last" title of Isaiah 44:6 to both the "First and the Last" title in Revelation and the "Alpha and Omega" title.

    In response I would refer you back to the varient reading that was earlier mentioned, where we saw prwtotokos used, which at the very least demonstrates that within the mind of this one copiest, a member of the early church, that it was not such an allusion, but a reference to something else. Most likely, to the same use of prwtotokos found in verse 5, which is a reference to his resurrection.

    (2) An allusion is credible only if there is some combination of common vocabulary, word order, themes, structure, etc. Again, this criterion is fulfilled. In Revelation there is a combination of (egó + eimi) + prótos + kai + eskhatos. Between the three uses of the "First and Last" title in Deutero-Isaiah, we have egó + protos in Isaiah 41:4, 44:6 LXX, egó + eimi + prótos in 48:12 LXX, prótos + eskhatos in 44:6 LXX-Hex. and 41:4 Th (as tois eskhatois), and coordination with kai in all examples. The similarity is closer with the Hebrew MT, 'ny r'shwn w-any 'chrwn "I [am] first and I [am] last" (44:6). Note that the similarity isn't simply the title "First and Last" but that it is associated with the first person verb eimi and/or egó "I" (= 'ny and 'ny-hw' in 48:12 MT). In addition to the use of the same vocabulary and order, there is also a thematic link: the title is self-claimed by a divine speaker, and it is associated in its literary context of with a set of divine titles and phrases with divine connotations.

    I think you may be unaware that it is common within the New Testament to take Old Testament language and make a completely new application of the language, without ever alluding to what is found in the original context. In such cases, we find "common vocabulary, word order... structure, etc," without actually being an allusion to that original text. This is seen, for example, in Matthew 21:26, Hebrews 1:5, 6; 2:13, etc. The use of these texts must be kept within the new context to properly determined if it is intended as an allusion to the original passage, or if the language is merely being borrowed in a new application. The latter is what we find in Revelation 1:17. This addresses the rest of your numbered points, so I won't bother taking the time to go through them point by point.

    What support is there that the latter connotation is excluded in Revelation? You see, your reading admits no import of the original OT connotation of the term, as if the death/resurrection meaning is the only one that matters in the text. But this is hardly the case when the author associates "First and Last" with other divine epithets and doxologies (ho zón, zóneis tous aiónas tón aiónón, autó hé doxa kai to kratos eis tous aiónas, etc.) that otherwise refer to God in liturgy and in earlier literature, and one of which (zóneis tous aiónas tón aiónón) explicitly highlights God's eternity. As I pointed out twice already, the author intentionally links the death/resurrection of Jesus with the original beginning of the cosmos: Jesus is the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world (apo katabolés kosmou)" (13:8); cf. 1 Peter 1:18-20: "You were ransomed ... with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without defect or blemish, destined before the foundation of the world (pro katabolés kosmou)". Similarly, the title "First and Last" is recast as "Beginning and End (hé arkhé kai to telos)" in Revelation 22:13, and the use of arkhé here evokes the designation of Christ as hé arkhé tés ktiseós tou theou "the beginning of the creation of God" in 3:14, a title that again is oriented to Christ's original role in the world's beginning. Compare Theophilus of Antioch: "He is called Beginning (arkhé) because he leads and dominates everything fashioned through him" (Ad Autolycum 2.10). These titles have in view BOTH roles of Christ and stress the present authority and deity of Christ in his exaltation.

    What support is there that the latter connotation is included? Nothing either. One must assume Trinitarianism, quite frankly. Jesus as the lamb slain before the foundation of the world does nothing to make the connection that exists in your imagination. Revelation 3:14 has nothing to do with the world's beginning, for the world is not the ARCH of God's creation. This text in itself is an allusion to Proverbs 8:22, where Wisdom is the ARCH of God's works, as Jesus himself is. If you wish to say "ruler" you would find ARCWN ala 1:5, if you wish to say "originator" you contradict the entire NT witness on Christ's role in creation (Jo. 1:3; 1Co. 8:6; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:2). Indeed, as I have already argued, Rev. 22:12 is a reference to the Father, per the speaker change in 22:16 ala 1:9 and 22:8.

    Allusion, hey....interesting that here you are not dismissive of allusion as you were with respect to the title "First and Last". Yes, there is a direct link with Jewish-Christian wisdom/memra speculation which reified God's intelligence/mind/utterance/reason/etc. as a hypostasis of God....usually not as an equal or independent being (because of monotheism, and because God inherently has wisdom within himself), but as a hypostasis nevertheless, as "pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty" and "reflection of the eternal light", and "untarnished mirror of God's power" (Wisdom 7:25-26; cf. Hebrews 1:3), or in the qualitative sense of John 1:1, "what Wisdom is, God is" (cf. John 1:5 = Wisdom 7:30; compare also John 1:18, 3:35, 5:19, 21-22, 6:46, 8:19, 10:38, 14:9-11), and in Revelation by God's purpose the exalted Christ is entitled to the titles and privileges and authority that are traditionally ascribed to God: "To the one sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be all praise, honor, glory and power, forever and ever" (5:13). The ascription of omniscience and eternity to Christ is part of the author's offering of praise.

    There is debate on whether or not Wisdom was thought of as a distinct person or a mere hypostasis in Jewish speculation, but this matter is resolved by Hebrews 1:3, where the SOFIA/LOGOS is seen as CARAKTHR THS hYPOSTASEWS TOU QEOU. John 1:1's "qualitative sense" is of course garbage, for you want the count noun to magically transform into a mass noun. You have not shown any sense of "omniscience and eternity to Christ," when in facts Wisdom is shown to be nothing less than created, in a most temporal way. The first of God's works... a work of God. Temporal.

    pointed out the parallels in Colossians 1:15-20 because they strikingly connect Jesus' exalted status as sovereign of the universe with his original role in creation. He is "before all things" in two ways. "All things were created" in him and through him and for him (v. 15-16), this pertains to the pre-incarnate Christ, and "he holds together all things ... all things are reconciled" through him and for him (v. 17, 20), this pertains to the exalted Christ. This is very similar to the way the title "First and Last" (which is used to refer to "the beginning" in Isaiah 41:4, and which pertains to the "laying of the foundations of the earth and spreading out of the heavens" in Isaiah 48:12-13) is used in Revelation to associate Jesus' death and resurrection with original creation. The sovereignty of Jesus is paramount in Colossians 1:18 ("in everything he has the supremacy") and in Revelation 1-3 ("ruler of the kings of the earth," in 1:5, "to him be glory and power forever and ever" in 1:6, "authority to rule them with an iron sceptre" in 2:27-28, "I became victorious and took my place with my Father on his throne" in 3:21).

    I see you mistranslate Colossians 1:17, where it actually reads not that he holds all things together, but "all things are held together in him." The allusion to Wisdom literature in this text rules out any sense of eternality for the Logos, for Wisdom though "before all things" is expressly said to be "created." Now unless you want to enter in the arena of special pleading, created means created.

    Of course, because Colossians is not the text that is allusive of Deutero-Isaiah. It does tho have some weight in interpreting Revelation which has several parallels with the Christ hymn in Colossians. In fact, David Aune among other scholars suspects some influence from Colossians on Revelation because the letter circulated in Asia Minor, including Laodicea (cf. Colossians 4:16; cf. the letter to Laodicea in Revelation 3:14-22), and because of multiple similarities in phrasing, cf. [1] "firstborn of the dead" (prótotokos tón nekrón) in Revelation 1:5 vs. "firstborn from the dead" (prótotokos ek tón nekrón) in Colossians 1:18, [2] "beginning of the creation of God" (hé arkhé tés ktiseós tou theou) in Revelation 3:14 vs. "firstborn of all creation" (prótotokos pasés ktiseós) in Colossians 1:15 and "who is the beginning (hos estin hé arkhé)" in 1:18, etc. This does not necessarily mean that the two writings share the same perspective, but where there is congruence the similarities are noteworthy.

    I would agree that Revelation draws from Colossians. Even the NA27 GNT cites Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 as allusions to each other. Of course, this is particularly interesting, because such a reading also (on top of what I earlier mentioned) the other varient translations of Revelation 3:14, for PRWTOTOKOS in no way parallels "ruler" or "source/originator." But both parallel in first in order, not to eliminate the preeminenent aspect of PRWTOTOKOS, but to say that both are included and compliment eachother.

    Mondo

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    Mondo wrote to Leo:

    I think you may be unaware that it is common within the New Testament to take Old Testament language and make a completely new application of the language, without ever alluding to what is found in the original context. In such cases, we find "common vocabulary, word order... structure, etc," without actually being an allusion to that original text.

    The question is then: How do you then determine the meaning of the NT-passage (other than doctrine)? I don`t necessarily disagree with you in the fact that the NT-writers took some liberties when quoting from the OT, but if we were to assume that this is the rule rather than the exception, how then can we assume that the NT-passages are meant to be fulfillments of the OT-prophecies at all? I find it funny to hear the "the NT-writers took liberties when quoting from the OT"-argument, coming from a jw (or jw-inspired) though. You people are usually the first ones to dismiss this kind of thinking, but now I see that you are using this argument, when you see it fit. My question is, if the NT-writers "took liberties", how then can we know what the meaning is, of just about anything in the NT? And in this particular case of "The First and the Last", we both agree that this is an expression exclusively given to Yahweh in the OT, and not only that, but the repeating of this phrase in Reveleation 22, where it is atrributed to God only, affirms this rule. If the NT-writer then saw no problem in taking this phrase (which is exclusively attributed to God) and put it in the mouth of Jesus Christ, what does this then tell us? You have only two ways to deal with this: Either the expression isn`t so holy as you claim it to be, or... Leolaia showed you the other expressions in the full "first and the last"- statement of Jesus also refers to OT-passages ("The lving One" referring to "The Living God", "The God that lives forever", etc), but still you insist that this refers primarily to Christs ressurection, and that this is to be the primary meaning of the Rev-passage. .Still, this is a conclusion that you are arriving at solely on the basis of doctrine! If it hadn`t been for doctrine, you would have had no problem in seeing how the entire Rev 1-passage is primarily referring to deity, while the ressurection is very secondary.

    Leolaia: What do you think about Rev 22.12? Speaker change?

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