by Hellrider 239 Replies latest watchtower bible
Mondo:
I'm not sure whether you are scan reading posts with an eye to refute them, or just have reading comprehension issues. Your consistency makes me suspect the latter. You certainly aren't answering any of the questions put to you, rather you are inventing stuff, as highlighted by HR and Kenneson.
I tired a loooong time ago of arguing for the sake of arguing, concerning such topics...
Littletoe,
If what you claim is true, by all means show me.
Hellrider,
Psalm 8:5 reads "you made him a little lower than the godS." ELOHIM. Hebrews 2 quotes this showing it to be angels.
Mondo
Mondo:
Psalm 8:5 reads "you made him a little lower than the godS." ELOHIM. Hebrews 2 quotes this showing it to be angels.
LoL. This is the context:
Psalm 4 "what is man that you are mindful of him,
the son of man that you care for him?
5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings
and crowned him with glory and honor. "
I believe you have misunderstood Hebrews 2 a little bit. The passages reads:
"5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. 6 But there is a place where someone has testified:
"What is man that you are mindful of him,
the son of man that you care for him?
7 You made him a little lower than the angels;
you crowned him with glory and honor
8 and put everything under his feet?In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."
This passage is speaking of the earthly Jesus. The passage affirms that the earthly Jesus was made "a little lower than the heavenly beings" (angels). The angels are here not referred to as "gods", but as heavenly beings. That Jesus is made "a little lower" than these, does not mean that they (the angels) are considered to be "gods", or something "very high", it just means that even Jesus, when walking the earth as a man, was "a little lower than these". After all, it is "not to angels he has subjected the world to come", is it? It is to someone else. Who do you think it is? (and clearly, according to Hebrews 2, he is not an angel, because "it is not to angels he has subjected the world to come"- Is Jesus then an angel?)
Mondo:I'm not claiming truth or falsehood, I'm discussing, ya know, where a series of opinions and viewpoints are expressed, like on a "discussion" board?
Let's see. Thusfar I've asked you:
If Wisdom refered to the Holy Spirit instead of the Son, how might that affect your theology?
And:
Prior to that it was difficult to describe adequately beyond innately knowing that Christ was their Lord and their God, and yet not the same person as the Father. Surely you agree with that innate "knowing"?
Then I proceeded to show you some of the steps as my own thoughts on the subject developed some years ago.
I didn't offer you a systematic theology, or even hard facts. I merely asked a few questions and presented an opinion. It seems that you're so busy arguing with anyone who dares post your name that you've missed that subtle occupation.
Hellrider,
Nice try on the mistranslation. The text says <B>gods</b>, translated from the Hebrew ELOHIM.
Mondo
Mondo:
Nice try on the mistranslation. The text says <B>gods</b>, translated from the Hebrew ELOHIM.
LoL, I know that, and I have no problem with it. I guess I should have agreed to that before I made the point that I made about hebrews. But hey, nice try on sidestepping my point about hebrews. So I ask again (and I`ll rephrase it, so it suits your correct observation about Elohim), and it would be polite if you for once tried to answer an argument instead og ignoring it. About the passage in Hebrews:
This passage is speaking of the earthly Jesus. The passage affirms that the earthly Jesus was made "a little lower than the heavenly beings" (angels). The angels are here referred to as gods (in the sense and meaning of angels!!! - one of the very few places in the Bible), and that Jesus is made "a little lower" than these, does not mean that they (the angels) are considered to be something "very high", it just means that even Jesus, when walking the earth as a man, was "a little lower than these". After all, it is "not to angels he has subjected the world to come", is it? It is to someone else. Who do you think it is? (and clearly, according to Hebrews 2, Jesus Christ is not an angel, because "it is not to angels he has subjected the world to come"- Is Jesus then an angel?)
(and before you answer): That Jesus is distinct from the angels, is made clear many places in the NT.
Mark 13,32: "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
John 1,51: He then added, "I tell you the truth, you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."
1 Corinthians 6,3 makes the limited power/rank of angels clear: Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
Galatians 3,19: What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.
1 Peter 3,22: who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
And let`s not forget Collossians 2,18, which makes it perfectly clear that the angels are of lesser rank than Jesus:
"Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions."
...I don`t know why I bother this, though, as you refuse to adress the arguments and points made.
Hellrider,
You're still not overturning the basic argument. Angels are gods in a sense higher than man, for Jesus was also a god in the sense of the judges of Israel while on Earth, but he was still "a little lower than the gods." Hence they are gods in a sense higher than the judges of Israel.
btw, I don't think you were arguing this, but just in case you were, ELOHIM never *means* angels. It is a term applies to angels, but it never means it.
Mondo
Mondo:
btw, I don't think you were arguing this, but just in case you were, ELOHIM never *means* angels. It is a term applies to angels, but it never means it.
I know that ELOHIM means "gods" (plural), and that it is here used as a word for angels. The funny thing is that Genesis 1.1 in hebrew reads "In the beginning the gods created the heavens and the earth". I wonder how you explain that within your anti-trinitarian view, but that is another matter. The point is that I have overturned the basic argument long ago, and this is why you are refusing to answer the direct questions asked above. Case closed.
Mondo1,
You say that Jesus was a little lower than the angels while on earth. But if he was an angel before he came to earth, what became of his angelness while he was on earth? Did he leave it in heaven, so that part of Jesus was in heaven and part of him was on earth? Did he just materialize a body, but was still an angel? But, if he were still an angel then how could he be lower than the angels while on earth? Exactly what became of Michael the archangel? Is he still in existence?
But if he was an angel before he came to earth, what became of his angelness while he was on earth? Did he leave it in heaven, so that part of Jesus was in heaven and part of him was on earth? Did he just materialize a body, but was still an angel? But, if he were still an angel then how could he be lower than the angels while on earth? Exactly what became of Michael the archangel? Is he still in existence?
Not to answer for Mondo, but Hebrews 2:7 says Jesus was made lower than the angels (the gods Ps. 8) which implies he no longer held onto his previous nature, which as we believe was as a divine spirit being..angel..logos/wisdom.... Phillipians 2 also tells us that whatever nature he enjoyed in heaven, he gave it up or emptied it, which alone puts some serious strain on the God-man doctrine. Two natures co-existing.... and that whole thing.
