Revelation 1.17 Jesus divinity? Or just "the first" raised from the dead"?

by Hellrider 239 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  ellderwho

  separate his prehuman life force and his substance , in effect taking dualism to the spiritual plane? The wt does that, and it cannot define it's terms.

  Yeah, funny, neither can Mondo1. He wants a Christ from heaven, but cannot get Christ to the earth.

  Then he wants a Christ to raise from the dead, but he cant have that either. Because the Wt got rid of the body. (Live Forever book)

  Ultimately he would then want a spirit to raise on the third day, but he cant have that either, because nothing like that came down to begin with.

  And you want terms?
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  Mondo1

  Your sarcasm is rather unbecoming. I ask for terms to be defined because Biblically, these terms can mean different things. Open any lexicon and look up the word pneuma (spirit) and you'll see a range of meanings.
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  Satanus

  Mondo1

  Since you seem to have the lexicons, why don't you define the term that applies to the spirit that jesus was as a prehuman entity? It will help you towards the goal of answering my simple yes or no question, namely, if the remainding percentage of that within in jesus the human was above zero.

  S
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  ellderwho

  I ask for terms to be defined because Biblically, these terms can mean different things.

  Your theology is based upon the Wt.

  You state: He emptied himself of that nature. He was no longer spirit, he took on flesh by coming to be in the womb of Mary.

  Therefore, the terms I give you are the Wt terms. Life force from what you speak of is by Wt definition (pg.82 Knowledge book) "life force" is only the breath of man which keeps him alive an does not have any of the characteristics of the creature it animates.

  Mondo1: So essentially his mind, his consciousness. Instead of residing in spirit, it came to reside in flesh.

  Since spirit beings do not have physical bodies, then they do not have lungs and the need to breath. Further, since you claim nothing of Sons spirit body came down and dwelt in the human body, was the Son still existing in heaven?

  With this in mind dont forget what the Knowledge book says on page 109:

  "wicked angels took on fleshly bodies." These angels, in bodily form, had relations with women, and children were born. But when the flood came these "rebellious angels escaped destruction by dematerializing their fleshly bodies and returning to the spiritual realm."

  Apparently the Wt teaches that it is possible for spirit beings themselves to indwell humans without ceasing to exist or giving up their identity.

  Then why I ask you would it be impossible for the Son to come down and dwell in a fleshly body? Isnt that more reasonable then implying that God transferred his life into Mary, while trying to maintain that nothing really came down?
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  ellderwho

  Will you stop acting so immature please?

  Your sarcasm is rather unbecoming.

  We're all big boys here. You'd better get some thicker skin while pushing unfounded Wt doctrine.
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  Kenneson

  Ephesians 4:8-10 "Wherefore he says: 'When he ascended on high he carried away captives; he gave gifts in men.' Now the expression 'he ascended,' what does it mean but that he also descended into the lower regions, that is, the earth? The very one that descended is also the one that ascended far above all the heavens, that he might give fullness to all things."

  The continuity of Jesus from heaven to earth and from earth to heaven.
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  Mondo1

  The problem is that more than one use applies to Jesus. Irregardless, I have already explained what took place in what was the final post on page 10. Please consult that for your answer.
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  Satanus

  Mondo1

  The problem is that more than one use applies to Jesus.

  You couldn't find anything in the lexicons to suit, so you fall back on the wt's inexplicable theory? As a result, you are unable to answer yes or no to a simple, spiritual question. This proves that my description of you was not sarcasm.

  S
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  Deputy Dog

  Mondo

  Nothing "possessed" Jesus' body, Jesus was Jesus.

  Maybe you can define your terms. What (substance) came down from heaven?

  Joh 6:48

  "I am the bread of life. 49 YOUR forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet died. 50This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world."
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  LittleToe

  Of course we shouldn't avoid examining Phil.2:5-8, when considering the "emptying" theory:

  NWT - Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God's form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave's form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake.

  KJV - Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

  So it seems he started out in the "form" of God (is that his role, his substance as one existing as god-stuff, or something else?). He then emptied himself of his reputation. He then took the form of a servant. The was then "made" in the likeness of men. He then humbled himself further, to the point of death.

  Let's just recap: what did he empty, and what did he change? The answer is not to be found in the WT Library CDRom, nor in a Lexicon.