(For Christians) Why Human Organization Is Unnecessary (page 3)

lovelylil

outlaw,

see my previous post above. I used the same verse and cited the text. This is a good thread, thanks Auldsoul. Lilly

Apostate Kate

greendawn: Most of the direction was entrusted to the Holy Spirit.
That's how I see it, too.

You get an AMEN here too.

I'm not sure we can completly compare the Christian church today to that of the first Century. So much has changed. Then they had traveling preachers, the apostles, the disciples, thier immediate students like Timothy was to Paul. They had letters to read from them. They esteemed these early church leaders since they had experienced Jesus either in the flesh or in the Spirit as did Paul.

These early believers had to have faith in the testimonies of these leaders.They had the Tanahk, the letters that came and personal testimonies.

We are experiencing being a part of a brand new church. As it grows and changes it is apparent that there needs to be leaders and co leaders and assistants to them. Of course everything is prayed on and everyone is involved in the formation of this new church. As a need arises, someone is moved by the Spirit to fell that need. I am watching this happen.

We don't have a building and need one because we are growing fast. So we have a group to organize a building fund. I think having the right leader is imperative. Our fearless leader has stated many times he is no respecter of persons and do not take what he says as fact without checking for yourself. He is aproachable, submitted to the leading of the Holy Spirit, listens and learns from us.

OUTLAW

Thanks Lilly,your a sweetheart...OUTLAW

V

Shame on you AuldSoul for perpetuating the myth. It is WHOM and not WHERE.

John 6:68 (NWT) "Lord whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life."

For Christains there is only Jesus to go to, not some other "where" inferring an organisation, building, or location.

For JWs there is only a "where", the Faithful and Discreet Slave's organisation who stand in the way of "the way" and have no problem printing that mandate in their publications.

On another note,

True spirituality needs no organisation.

Many people are very inclined to follow practice and ritual as an excuse for true spirituality. These people may be less 'mystic', or just prefer the comfort of a worship system. The validity of the doctrine means very little as long as they know the routine.

The Catholics know when to kneel and the JWs like their song and prayer. This is lazy religion and does little to embrace the essense of our spirits, our spirituality.

Does this explain why JWs have raped and robbed the word "spiritual" until its mangled definition is reduced to "a productive publisher"?

There are truly spiritual individuals in religious organisations. But ask any one of them and you will be told that their spirituality is a very personal experience. It cannot be taught. There is no method. There is no organisation to it.

M.J.

I was watching the movie Cast Away on TV the other day.

It occurred to me that if an organization is necessary for salvation, Tom Hanks' character would be screwed if he was never rescued from that island.

TopHat

We don't have a building and need one because we are growing fast. So we have a group to organize a building fund. I think having the right leader is imperative. Our fearless leader has stated many times he is no respecter of persons and do not take what he says as fact without checking for yourself. He is aproachable, submitted to the leading of the Holy Spirit, listens and learns from us.

Kate....I just hope you are not being duped....It sounds TO GOOD TO BE TRUE

Narkissos

It seems to me there was a fair degree of agreement between Paul, John, and James on the subject of organization, specifically regarding it's source. Which is why I included the qualifier "Human" in the title.

Well, as to the ultimate source, everybody formally agrees, including the pope and the GB -- remember the "spirit-directed organization"?

The problem of course lies in the quantity and quality of "Human" mediations, or through which means does the Holy Spirit exercises its/his/her authority.

Imo the earliest picture we have of some Christian communities (mainly from the Hellenistic church of Corinth in the Pauline letters) is a pretty immediate direction of the Holy Spirit through the charismata given to practically anybody -- men and women, rich or poor, slaves or free, educated or illiterate... iow, a joyfully enthusiastic mess, which Paul attempts to channel and "organise" by his own "apostolic" authority -- limiting the role of women, introducing a hierarchy of charismata, church discipline etc. Later Ephesians introduces the new perspective of a universal (instead of local) Church, pictured as the body whose head is Christ, acting through a hierarchy of definite mediations / ministries. The trend of authoritarian organisation becomes even more obvious in the Pastorals (or the addition to 1 Corinthians 14:33ff), with specific roles ascribed to the "bishop"/"overseer" (who is sole in charge for teaching the "healthy doctrine" in any given local church), the "deacons"/"ministers", and a total silencing of women and heretics (read Gnostics).

This increasingly "organisational" line, although historically dominant, is resisted, both on the Jewish-Christian (see how both Matthew and the Epistle of James insist on communitarian dynamics, beware of the undue attention paid to "teachers," etc.) and on the Johannine sides ("you do not need anyone to teach you") -- ironically, it has often been remarked that Diotrephes who rejects the Johannine "Elder"'s envoys in 3 John is acting like a good "bishop" by the Pastorals -- protecting his flock from potential heresy.

Apostate Kate

We don't have a building and need one because we are growing fast. So we have a group to organize a building fund. I think having the right leader is imperative. Our fearless leader has stated many times he is no respecter of persons and do not take what he says as fact without checking for yourself. He is aproachable, submitted to the leading of the Holy Spirit, listens and learns from us.
Kate....I just hope you are not being duped....It sounds TO GOOD TO BE TRUE

Not at all. That is the great thing about being part of a healthy functioning church. WE have a SAY in what goes on. Totally different from the WT. An authentic Christian leader will never tell you, believe what I say. They will point you to believe what Jesus said.

The purpose of the church, the focus should be on charity! We don't have to go door to door because our very lives are testimonies to our faith.

We don't sell religion we follow Jesus. And He said "Matthew 25:39-40 When did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you?' "The King will answer them, 'Most assuredly I tell you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers you did it to me.'

It takes a little bit of organization to gather people together for some of today's ministries. I am working on filling up my truck for a trip down to the drug rahab ranch. I can't do this on my own! I have to get others organized to help.

Our salvation does not depend on attending meetings. It is a free gift for the taking. But with phones, printed materials, and now the Internet I can organize help to fill that truck! I just have to take a step of faith and get the ball rolling.

TopHat

It takes a little bit of organization to gather people together for some of today's ministries. I am working on filling up my truck for a trip down to the drug rahab ranch. I can't do this on my own! I have to get others organized to help.

Hi Kate, May I ask out of curiosity, Who is running the drug rehab ranch and how do you fill up your truck. With Meds? Who pays for all of this? I think it is great if you can do good work helping others.

AuldSoul

Thanks ((((all)))) for the voluminous input. I have to take the time to consider all this, now, before I can compile and complete my post.

Very briefly, V...you misunderstood, my friend. I placed the conditional phrase "if" on the importance of the question "where" (versus "whom"). If human organization is important, then "Where will we go?" becomes important whether or not that is what Peter asked. If human organization (in the conext of religion) is unimportant, that "Where will we go?" question is a non-starter.

I will be mulling over all your posts today and doing more research this evening. Thanks all!

Respectfully,
AuldSoul

(For Christians) Why Human Organization Is Unnecessary

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