Reflections

by Frenchy 92 Replies latest jw friends

Martini

Greetings friends one and all,
There is so much to say where, do I start. I'd like to believe that this board is different than say H2O in that those posting here still have a soft spot for "Jehovah's Witnesses" the religion past and present.Many points of arguement against the WTS are clearly borrowed from former JW's or known 'apostates' if you will. It would be nice if we could get a seperate take on what's wrong or right in our religion.( I believe this is Frenchy's contention.)Let's see if we could reason without the use of 'apostate material'.
I have heard many of those arguements because I have read much of that material available on the Net. Even though I feel there are strong arguements somehow collectively they fall short of offering 'good news'. Sure they pick the WTS to pieces but in the end your left with an empty bag. Basically you end up with no faith, no religion, no god, no good news for a better existence. Don't misunderstand, if this life is all there is I'd like to know so I could make the best of it... so far though apart from the 'good news' according to the WT, this life does seems to be all there is!
My reflections on this thread lead me to ask this question:
If it were possible to sift out all that is of human origin with the JW faith do you think that we all could be satisfied with what would be left over?
Thanks for any replies,
Martini.
Pathofthorns

Let's see if we could reason without the use of 'apostate material'.

There is no "apostate material" martini. There is just honest questions, facts and thinking. Apostate material is anything that isn't from the WT. If you reason without "apostate material" you don't reason at all, because you only do what you are told.
If it were possible to sift out all that is of human origin with the JW faith do you think that we all could be satisfied with what would be left over?
And just what would be left over?
I am afraid you, as most of us were, are still in love with a "concept" and the "dream". A promise with no basis is empty.
The concept was noble, and the dream was beautiful, but it wasn't founded in reality and truth. Even faith needs elements of reality and truth.
The thinking is painful. Casting away what you never doubted or questioned hurts very much. So will the conclusions you reach. But once you embrace them, you will feel better, things will look brighter.
Path
AhHah

Martini,
I am fairly new here. After 32 baptized years as a JW and having left it for less than two years, I can honestly say that I have no soft spot in my heart for the JW org. I do, however, have a soft spot in my heart for many of the people in it, which includes most of my own family members.
I thought your question was interesting:
If it were possible to sift out all that is of human origin with the JW faith do you think that we all could be satisfied with what would be left over?
My reaction was the same as Path's. What would be left over? I could only think of the Bible and fellowship. But even the fellowship is perverted by loyalty to the org above all else. So that just leaves the Bible, which is exactly what existed before there was a JW religion. Is that enough to satisfy everyone? Apparently not, or else there would be no religions.
Why is that? Why is the Bible not spiritually satisfying in itself, if it is what it claims to be, the Creator's book to mankind? Is it because much of it is hard to understand? Why is that? Why wouldn't God want it to be easily understood? Wouldn't one make such a book for one's own children easily understood, especially if that was to be the only way one would communicate with one's children? Why doesn't God choose to communicate directly with all of us if we are his children? Would that be too difficult for a Creator? Would it be beneath him?
Is the Bible not satisfying because it paints such a contradictory picture of God himself? A God of love and a God of war? A God who delivers some, and lets others suffer unspeakable acts of injustice without raising a finger to help? That is no more satisfying than the human condition itself.
If the Bible is really God's way of letting us know our purpose and our destiny, then why can no one agree on what the Bible prophecies mean (especially Revelation)? Why doesn't God clearly reveal their meaning if he loves us and wants us to be reassured? If there is a true religion then why does he not reveal it -- to everyone at the same time -- and as often as necessary -- so that there would be no doubt in anyone's mind? Why leave everyone guessing and arguing? Wouldn't most of us do at least that for our own children? Would we enjoy leaving them in doubt for many long years, or all of their lives -- doubting that we even exist let alone care about them?
Perhaps these are some of the reasons that the Bible alone does not spiritually satisfy us. Perhaps these are some of the reasons that many people will surrender so much of their freedom to those who will provide easier answers -- with no more proof than hearing them say that God told me so. Perhaps that is why they are so willing to believe that God speaks to others but not to them personally -- because they so desperately want to believe that God cares about them personally.
I am beginning to believe that any revelations that God has in store for us are not revealed in this life -- at least not entirely. Perhaps we get glimpses here and there, and perhaps the Bible and other holy books contain some of them. But much of the Bible sounds like it comes from men, not a superior Creator.

Or perhaps God started this whole universe as an experiment (maybe one of many experiments) and he is just waiting to see what happens. So, for now, shit happens, deal with it, would seem to be the message.
Maybe we get a better shot at enlightenment the next time around (if there is one). So each day of life is precious. Make the most of it. Make someone happy. Commit random acts of love and senseless acts of kindness. Prove to God that we are worth caring about.
-
p.s. Martini, you might enjoy reading the thread "So, what did u like as a JW?".
Edited by - AhHah on 10 November 2000 4:9:44
Frenchy

AhHah:
Can you not see the real danger that presents to people when such an imperfect organization claims to speak for God?
You keep missing the point.
Again, when an imperfect human organization demands …
Point missed again.
So, if you were attempting to use the Bible to defend the JW position…
And once more, point missed.
Why is that I must actually state the obvious?
Obvious to whom?
waiting
Path’s post of the WTS’ explanation of Matt 9:38-40 is correct. Point? Few things are simple, even simple statements. I can see how that explanation could be possible. As to your comments about Jesus freeing people from the shackles of the law, I quite agree. That is the impression that I get as well. Like Path, I’m somewhat disturbed that Christianity seems to have gone back to what Jesus freed everyone from, namely rules and rituals and the fostering of the idea that Jesus alone is not enough, that an organization is needed to serve God.
First, it should be proven that the person is leaving the teaching of Christ , and not the WTBTS doctrine. –waiting
Remember what I said at the beginning? IF the WTS truly was what it claims to be… if that were the case then its teachings would be the ‘teaching of Christ.’ As for just how and to the extent that this removal from the congregation was carried out back then no one really knows now. If it truly was what it claims to be would it not have the authority to establish a procedure for that removal? The first century congregation certainly did. Whatever that procedure was.
Thanks for your replies. I enjoy them very much.
Path:
As I stated above to waiting, I too am fascinated by what happened to first century Christianity. Regardless of how you look at it, what was present back then no longer exists, at least not in the form that it did back then. I would be fascinating to go back in time and take a peek at what really transpired. We sometimes try to paint a picture of something that existed with only a handful of letters that survived the era.
This simple statement shows how many can have different viewpoints where the scriptures are not clear, but still have Christian unity. Of course, if we followed this, what authority would anyone have? Why would anyone need to join an "organization" then?
Authority. That’s what it boils down to, isn’t it? Who has the authority to make those decisions?
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
Edited by - Frenchy on 10 November 2000 8:44:38
Frenchy

Martini
It would be nice if we could get a seperate take on what's wrong or right in our religion.( I believe this is Frenchy's contention.)
Thank you. This was my intent and purpose from the beginning. It’s very difficult to look objectively at things that foster such strong emotions but I believe that it is necessary. I have discovered with this thread just how difficult it is for people to be able to do that. No one has been able to say “well if it really was God’s organization…” and follow with some positive statement. Every reply has been an effort to show that it is not. That was never the argument in the first place. I have even sensed some anger at my hypothetical stipulation and have been accused of defending the WTS. My long association with this board and the volumes of threads that I have posted certainly do not indicate this.
Even though I feel there are strong arguements somehow collectively they fall short of offering 'good news'. Sure they pick the WTS to pieces but in the end your left with an empty bag. Basically you end up with no faith, no religion, no god, no good news for a better existence.
Exactly. This line of reasoning has resulted in many who once prayed fervently to God to now reject him entirely. It has resulted in those that once accepted the teachings of Jesus and strove to live good, decent lives to abandon it all. I cannot see how this is better than what they had before. There has to be a better way. How long must one beat a dead horse?
If it were possible to sift out all that is of human origin with the JW faith do you think that we all could be satisfied with what would be left over?
I think there are many concepts that are good among JW’s although not necessarily the way that these things are implemented. I think that meeting together is important and beneficial. I like the idea of going to people’s homes with the Bible. I like the idea of a spiritual brotherhood. I like the idea of having a body of elders rather than a paid clergyman. I like the idea of promoting the Bible as God’s word.
Path said: ” There is no "apostate material" martini. There is just honest questions, facts and thinking. Apostate material is anything that isn't from the WT.” I think what Martini is referring to is the ‘hate’ material. Some of which, in all honesty, is not entirely accurate or fair. But you are correct in your statement.
I am afraid you, as most of us were, are still in love with a "concept" and the "dream". A promise with no basis is empty.
Right both times. Perhaps we are not searching diligently enough. For me there is no brightness or joy in embracing futility. I must continue searching. I may die thinking that it is still over the next hill and in that case my life will have been nothing more than a never ending and unfulfilled quest but it shall at least have had purpose.
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
Frenchy

AhHah
My reaction was the same as Path's. What would be left over? I could only think of the Bible and fellowship. But even the fellowship is perverted by loyalty to the org above all else.
Martini is not talking about things as they are but rather things as they could/should be Why would an organization HAVE to demand loyalty and unquestioned obedience as the WTS does? Why couldn’t things be different? What would the results be if we could pick out what is good and eliminate what is bad, i.e. ‘perverted loyalty’? Free you mind so as to think of possibilities. This is a 'what if' thread.
Why is that? Why is the Bible not spiritually satisfying in itself, if it is what it claims to be, the Creator's book to mankind? Is it because much of it is hard to understand? Why is that? Why wouldn't God want it to be easily understood?…
That’s what got us into the mess we’re in now, an easy way. Why does it have to be easy? Jesus himself said that it would not be easy. I believe that what we are going through is not only a test but a conditioning. I believe that the Bible is just what it is supposed to be. I believe that when you go to the Bible that you will find exactly what it is that you are looking for. That is the reason for its complexity, to sift out souls, to temper and refine our hearts, to separate the willfully bad from those who are basically good. It is, I believe, a book that is a mirror into our very souls. If we allow it to do so, it will not only teach us what we need to know but show us what we are. You will find what you are looking for in this book. If you want controversy and contradiction then you will see plenty of it. If you want hope and faith then you shall find that also. This book is from God. It’s not a cookbook or a do-it-yourself manual for making a rocking horse. You ask for simplicity. Humanity is not simple. The universe is not simple. Our development into what God has in mind for us requires that we undergo this tribulation that we are seemingly drowning in. I know that it’s hard and that many of us have undergone terrible and horrible things. But God is not unrighteous as to forget our work, our toil and our tears.
why can no one agree on what the Bible prophecies mean (especially Revelation)? Why doesn't God clearly reveal their meaning if he loves us and wants us to be reassured? If there is a true religion then why does he not reveal it -- to everyone at the same time -- and as often as necessary -- so that there would be no doubt in anyone's mind? Why leave everyone guessing and arguing? Wouldn't most of us do at least that for our own children? Would we enjoy leaving them in doubt for many long years, or all of their lives -- doubting that we even exist let alone care about them?
I have asked all those questions, my friend. I have been angry at God for those very reasons. I have lashed out at him with words and tears in my prayers. I still ask him every night that he reveal his will to me. I don’t know the reason why he chooses to do what he does and in the way that he does it. I cannot deny the feeling in my heart, however, that I know he exists and that he is watching over us and that he cries with us in our anguish. Perhaps that is his answer to my prayers, this feeling that I have inside. I would really like to have more but then perhaps with sight I would lose faith.
I’ll tell you of an experience I had in Jamaica. We were rafting down the Martha Rae, a river that is not much more than a ditch. Our guide was a very humble man who explained to us that the company he worked for allowed him to sell his gourds which he decorated with his own, personal artwork. He offered us some and I asked him how much? He grinned at me and shrugged his shoulders, handed me the gourds and said in that melodious Jamaican accent: “Whatever you wish. I know you will take care of me at the end of the ride.” I can’t get those words out of my head. “I know you will take care of me at the end of the ride.” When I think of God, I think of those words. I can’t help but think that is the attitude that God is trying/hoping to elicit from us. For us to give him our ‘gourds’ without contract or condition and to tell him, in effect, “I know you will take care of me at the end of the ride.”
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
AhHah

Frenchy,
I have enjoyed reading the posts on this thread and I enjoyed responding to some of them. I appreciate the way you invited open discussion. By playing "devil's advocate", you elicited some very thoughtful and meaningful posts. I hope that you did not mind that I passionately argued my positions.
Foremost in my mind and heart when I post on this topic is the high price that so many have paid with their lives as members of the JW's. I understand how difficult it is to allow oneself to question their authority and reclaim one's life. I try to imagine how I would be affected by what I am reading on this forum if I were still in the process of trying to evaluate membership. That is why I will always argue passionately against any argument that may hold out even the remote possibility that the organization is what it claims to be, a spokesman for God and Christ. Again, this is out of consideration for any who may still be struggling with this and do not want to reject God, but are suffering under the organization. You are also correct when you sense my anger toward the JW org for their deceit.
I enjoyed your last few posts very much. The experience in Jamaica was touching. Although I cannot agree with your explanation of the Bible's complexity, I find it interesting that we have arrived at a similar philosophy for living, even if for different reasons:
I can’t help but think that is the attitude that God is trying/hoping to elicit from us. For us to give him our ‘gourds’ without contract or condition and to tell him, in effect, “I know you will take care of me at the end of the ride.”
Maybe we get a better shot at enlightenment the next time around (if there is one). So each day of life is precious. Make the most of it. Make someone happy. Commit random acts of love and senseless acts of kindness. Prove to God that we are worth caring about.
I am very attracted by those who post regularly on this forum, because they seem to be the kind of people that I would invite into my home and enjoy associating with. As opposed to the stereotype of the "evil apostate" painted by the WT society, those here do not seem to be selfish, arrogant persons, seeking to spiritually shipwreck their brothers. Just the opposite. Even though we differ in our impressions of God and the Bible, there seems to be a genuine desire to help others.
We realize that we do not have the answers, but that we are all still valuable as individuals and we all have positive values to share. Even though we may be initially drawn together by common negative experiences with the JWs, there is also much sharing of life and exploring of different ideas and concepts. We challenge each other as we attempt to sort out the reliability and possible value of interesting research that we come across in our search for answers. We learn from each other. We confront the most controversial issues of human experience together and in the process we shape each other. Yes, we sometimes get angry and sad in the process. But that is good, we need to have a safe place to experience all of these emotions. We also laugh and sometimes we cry. We find comfort in the common human experience. We often rise above our sadness and grief over our past and share genuine happiness with others.
I believe that many of us miss meeting with others regularly for spiritual discussions and just for association. In some ways, this forum is not as satisfying as face-to-face association. But, in some ways, it is better. Would we really all be able to explore such controversial and emotional issues in the same room, week in and week out, without our disagreements becoming personal and uncomfortable? I don't think so. But, just the same, sometimes I really wish that we could meet.
Thank you for kindly indulging my rants and allowing me to purge sometimes. Thank you for keeping me honest. Thank you for challenging me. Thanks for being so willing to share the most vulnerable, personal feelings that we so seldom get to share with others. I love all of you.
Edited by - AhHah on 10 November 2000 13:20:43
RedhorseWoman

I have been privileged to meet several ex-JW's I have met online, and there are others with whom I converse regularly on the phone. These are the people I wish had been in my congregation when I was active.
They are intelligent, witty, kind and compassionate. They do not judge and they are very supportive.
As strange as it may sound, I'm finding from my own experience that the true Christians are the ones who are leaving the organization. Granted, there are many who simply don't want to live by Bible standards, but they are not generally the ones who will post on support and discussion boards. Those who do post are the most genuine people I have ever met.
Also, those I have met who continue to believe in God and the Bible, have a deep sense of spirituality that is simply not present in 90 percent of the active JW's I have known.
I tend to doubt that there is any organized religion extant today that embodies spirituality and godliness. Things get totally twisted through money and power, and the love that Jesus exhorted us to show becomes secondary.
I hope that at some time in the future at least some of us will be able to meet. You are all part of the spiritual brotherhood I had hoped to find as a JW. Thank you.
waiting

Hey Red and AhHah,
I just figured out the game. As usual, it took me forever.
Hey Frenchy
No one has been able to say "well if it really was God's organization...."
I, like everyone except Martini, made the mistake of thinking your questions were based in reality. My fault. I didn't realize that this was a "What IF" Thread. A game of illusion. A chance to suspend rational thinking for a bit and daydream. A chance to step back from what we have experienced, what we have learned, and just dream about "what IF?"
Ah, what IF. How fine. The ways things are "supposed to be." Like the good sister who works for me when we used to talk about the serious/not so serious problems in the congregation/WTBTS. She used to play this game all the time - it's what keeps her in the illusion of "the Truth". We would speak of a problem, and she would then say, "Well, that's not the way it's supposed to be. We're not taught from the scriptures to behave like that. We're supposed to be......" Then she dismisses the situation. She lives in her "suppose" world because IF the WTBTS was what it SAYS it is, we wouldn't be surrounded by "suppose" at all angles.
Sure they pick the WTS to pieces but in the end your left with an empty bag. Basically you end up with no faith,no religion, no god, no good news for a better existence. - Martini
Speaking for myself, I disagree. We are what we make of ourselves. If we wish to stay in an illusional world - we will look for a like religious organization. If we yearn for the rules & regulations, we will find an organization which fulfills that need. These are things that an organization can give us. More so than any organization or institution, our base heart, values, personality and time, will determine our depth of bitterness and/or happiness.
If we're looking for God, for answers, for peace, for love, for inner harmony, whatever - that may be harder. Imo, no organization can give us this. It is our personal quest. As Path said, and we all seem to agree with him, Jesus was sort of a renegade against the organization of that time. A personal-type saviour for individual humans.
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
I, for one, remember and do not wish to forget.
waiting
Edited by - waiting on 10 November 2000 16:7:0
AhHah

Waiting (and Martini),
Sure they pick the WTS to pieces but in the end your left with an empty bag. Basically you end up with no faith,no religion, no god, no good news for a better existence. - Martini
Speaking for myself, I disagree. We are what we make of ourselves. If we wish to stay in an illusional world - we will look for a like religious organization. If we yearn for the rules & regulations, we will find an organization which fulfills that need. These are things that an organization can give us. More so than any organization or institution, our base heart, values, personality and time, will determine our depth of bitterness and/or happiness. - Waiting
I agree with Waiting. People everywhere are living proof that we are what we make of ourselves, regardless of any formal religious affiliation. There are many positive persons who are working right now to make their world fulfilling and rewarding -- a better existence now, not later.
I believe that the JW indoctrination tends to skew our perspective. "If you leave us, where will you go? Who else is going to promise you the moon in exchange for your mindless slavery?" It is hard to unlearn the false expectations of someone else solving all of our problems, answering all of our questions, planning our entire life's agenda for the next 1000+ years. (Remember, we weren't going to die. We were going to live right through Armageddon. After burying all of the carcasses of the non-JW people God killed, we were going to -- what else? -- preach for another 1000 years before God does another round of killing of the unfaithful! Kind of sounds like Night of the Living Dead, doesn't it?)
Just like all other persons in human history, we too must face up to life's uncertainties and decide what we will make of our lives, now that we finally have a life. We must finally be responsible for trying to make some sense of this confusing world and finding values that we can live with and live by. Isn't it interesting that most cultures of the world, with all of their different religions, have similar laws and ascribe to very similar ideals of social behavior? I know that there are strange exceptions, but there seem to be more similarities than dissimilarities. Those "unwritten laws inscribed upon our hearts" (regardless of religion)?
We all have problems to face, but have you noticed that all cultures find ways of enjoying what life blesses them with? Most do not retire into a defeated, condemned existence, simply waiting to die.
Just because we do not have all the answers does not mean that we cannot be happy now. Maybe we are actually happier not knowing our destiny.
I am happier in some ways for having left the JW's. I feel that I am finding more balance in my life and beginning to have a sense of self that is not dependent on others. I consider that very positive.

Reflections

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