Reflections

by Frenchy 92 Replies latest jw friends

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  circare

  AhHah I agree, even as I was typing I was thinking that it really comes down to example. This is probably where we are failing and I haven't worked out how to overcome this yet. Thanks for all those thoughtful suggestions. Our intention was "to give our children all that is positive about the JW experience with none of the negatives." Somewhere though we have not managed this.

  My parents helped me in all those ways you mentioned.

  'We can assist them to develop a healthy sense of themselves that is not dependent on the validation of an organization. We can allow them to properly focus much of their energy on their own personal development and education without any of the guilt that we had being raised as a JW. We can assist them to broaden their horizons and reach for their own dreams.'

  I was not raised to look to the organisation for validation, only to my relationship with Jehovah. I was never made to feel guilty for any efforts at education, (members of my family continue to further their own education in various fields while being active witnesses). My family assisted me to reach for my dreams, it just happened that my dreams were all involved in 'witness pursuits'. Would they have been so helpful if I hadn't of my own volition chosen to be an active witness? I don't know really. I think they probably wouldn't have initially.

  However, I do remember a time in my teens when I became very depressed by events happening in my life, (my best friend had been disfellowshipped, a friend had been killed in a car accident, another friend had become schizophrenic and was in a terrible mess, and another friend seemed to be determined to self destruct no matter how much time and encouragement I gave him.). I became very dispirited and had slacked off in meeting attendance and field service. My father approached me and after letting me rant against the 'unfairness' of life and the inadequacies of the truth, the organisation, the publications, the elders, Jehovah and myself, his parting words were, "Be a witness, or don't be witness, but whatever, you have to live your life."

  I would like to pass this philosophy on to my children.

  Edited by - circare on 13 November 2000 0:53:45
• 

  circare

  Red thanks for those ideas. We have been involved with some of the things you mentioned.

  We along with our children have been involved in community projects and environmental issues. I have helped with literacy programs. My daughter would dearly love to foster homeless animals but we don't have the resources to do this at present. (Some of these things we did while we were active JW's too).

  It is very hard to become passionate about these things when the people you work with have their own hidden agendas that come ahead of whatever is trying to be achieved. The meetings are so terribly boring and go on for hours without much substance, and the precious time and effort you give achieves so little.

  I am not intending to be negative, I guess I just haven't discovered any causes that engender a lasting passion yet.
• 

  AhHah

  Circare,

  I am not intending to be negative, I guess I just haven't discovered any causes that engender a lasting passion yet.

  I can relate to that. I often feel "stuck". I sometimes think that this may be due to the ingrained JW indoctrination that no other endeavor in the entire universe could possibly ever compare to the holy grail of all human activities -- saving/condemning souls by preaching the Gospel. I exaggerate to make the point. But, subconsiously, I believe that we are programmed to reject and feel guilty about all other activities.

  I must often remind myself of a few things: Small steps at first. What is important is to keep putting one foot in front of the other, even when we are not motivated to do so -- and leading our childen by example. The joy that comes from positive activity increases the desire and the motivation. Each day, in fact our entire life, is nothing more than a series of relatively small events and activities that all together define us and give us meaning and purpose. Few of us get to make contributions that change the world. However, we all get to make contributions to the lives that we touch. Fortunately, those are where true happiness and fulfillment are found. Each loving smile, each small but unexpected act of kindness, each time we let others, especially our children, know how much we love and appreciate having them in our lives -- all of these are what our children will treasure long after we are gone and is the greatest gift that we can give them. Yet, each little event in itself is not what what will be remembered. The sum is what is important. We must reduce our grand expectations and be willing to live in the moment, in what opportunity each day offers.

  Edited by - AhHAh on 13 November 2000 2:28:41

  Edited by - AhHAh on 13 November 2000 3:4:6
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  Frenchy

  I think that we have touched on something in these last few posts, particularly with circare's and the responses to her post. I think it's something that is often skirted. There is something that the WTS gave us that seems to be lacking for the most part in our lives at present. Purpose. This is not unlike the 'empty nest syndrome' often experienced by parents when the last child leaves home. I know that it affected me. All of a sudden I seemed to lack purpose. I had just finished a twenty year project of raising three children. I felt empty and without purpose. Of course that feeling went away after I realized how much more time I had then! My life took an abrupt right turn and suddenly I was headed in another direction. After reflecting on the positive aspects of the situation I now find it quite enjoyable.
  Perhaps these discussions can help in pointing out that what we had was nothing more than a poor substitute for what is really needed. AhHah spoke of the 'validation' that is sought and this is a good point. I have asked this question of several witnesses and all gave the same response. See what you think of it: "If the Society were to come out and say that from this time forward there was no more need to turn in your time and placements, how many people would continue to go out in service?" NONE is the answer I got each time. Why? Are witnesses truly convinced of the importance of the formal, door to door work or are they doing this for another reason? Why do you suppose no one would go out if their time was no longer being recorded on a little index card in the congregation's file? After all, Jehovah would know that they were doing it, wouldn't he?
  How about blood transfusions? Every witness is thoroughly convinced that the Bible condemns the taking of blood transfusions. If the Society would come out tomorrow and say that it is now a matter of conscience, how many would allow their child to die rather than accept transfused blood? Very few if any. Why? What happened to their 'Bible-based' convictions which were so strong that they would have sacrificed their child's life on the altar of their faith?
  What would happen if that same article would also say that while it's good to associate with your brothers and sisters, it's not a sin to miss meetings and do things with your family. What would happen to meeting attendance? So the question is: Why did we do all those things? For God or for Watchtower articles? In each of the above mentioned cases (and many more not mentioned) one article in the Watchtower would change a lifetime of habit and commitment and belief. One article!
  Now anything that takes the place of God in any fashion is idolatry. It doesn't have to be a golden calf or a statue of Mary or of Jesus nailed on the cross. Anything which interferes with your communication with God (both ways, now!) is an idol.
  The study article in this past Sunday's lesson deals with prayer. Paragraphs 14 and 15 were particularly interesting. Here is a part of 14:

  The most profitable Bible reading starts, not by reading, but by praying..."If any one of you is lacking in wisdom, let him keep on asking God, for he gives generously to all and without reproaching; and it will be given him..." (James 1: 5,6)

  What a beautiful thought! Here's what happened at the WT study. The conductor asked a 'supplemental' question: "What should we do if we don't understand something we read in the Bible?" Answer given: "We should research it". Conductor's comment: "Yes, that's right!" Anybody see anything wrong with this?
  James did not say to 'research' if you don't understand. He said to ask God, didn't he? Why wasn't that given as the answer? Because the WTS organization has put itself between it's members and God. Even when witnesses read the inspired words they are unable to grasp their meanings because of the 'veil' that has been put in front of their eyes. They are not encouraged to pray to God for understanding of his Word. They are encouraged to pray to God for understanding of their word!
  Paragraph 2 of that same article says, in part,"Since it is his will that 'all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth,' he has seen to it that his Word is made available to all humankind. (1 Tim 2:4)" Beautiful thought but it is a thought that has been colored by previous programming. It is a divine and inspired gem that is denied to witnesses because of a veil that has been placed in front of their eyes. Look at this quote:

  ” Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible. For this reason the Bible cannot be properly understood without Jehovah’s visible organization in mind.” W67 p. 587

  What happened to his Word being ‘available to all humankind’??? All those billions of Bibles out there are completely useless unless the WTS interprets it? What happened to James’ inspired words: ‘…let him keep on asking God…”??? They have been negated by the WTS’ statements in the Watchtower. I believe we all remember another incident a very long time ago (not too far from where Carmel now lives!) when someone else tried to negate God’s Word!
  I say again, that which presumes to take God’s place in our lives is an idol. The idol may at times be reassuring because we can see it. But it is deadly in the end for it obscures that which it is vainly trying to represent. Paul said that we walk by faith, not by sight. To use Martini’s term, let’s walk away from the GREAT ILLUSION and pursue our quest for God and allow HIM to provide what he has promised. Let’s rely on the Holy Spirit for clarification as God sees fit to give us rather than volumes of reference manuals with ever changing and conflicting explanations.
  

  Let no man deprive YOU of the prize who takes delight in a [mock] humility and a form of worship of the angels, “taking his stand on” the things he has seen, puffed up without proper cause by his fleshly frame of mind, whereas he is not holding fast to the head, to the one from whom all the body, being supplied and harmoniously joined together by means of its joints and ligaments, goes on growing with the growth that God gives. –Col 2: 18,19 NWT

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

  Edited by - Frenchy on 13 November 2000 7:45:8
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  Martini

  Greetings all,
  Thank you very much for your compassionate comments everyone:)

  Waiting Said;
  Please keep in mind, if a teenager, they become different people about every 6 months for as many years.

  Thanks for the reminder I sure am counting on this fact of life. She is 13 going on sixteen, so the odds of bridging the gap is good,whew!

  Path;
  ...with the situation they face today in the "truth" they are headed for difficulty as one by one their friends leave.

  I don't doubt this, unless "this system" comes to an end 'soon' which I doubt!:)

  Circare,AhHah,Frenchy I'm saddend to hear how many are affected by this disgraceful shunning policy. It's similar to a hostage taking!Unless we can meet their terms and conditions our own family members are taken hostage by the WTS. Who would of thought we would become victims of our own device.

  Anyway I'm glad I could get some good advice from you guys so I could cushion the blow.

  Later,
  Martini.
• 

  Martini

  Hi,

  Back to topic...
  Frenchy I need to ask you... Is it true that the Israelites were historically Jehovah's chosen people?
  Also were they not God's dedicated nation up until after they impaled the Christ? Jesus himself said that they were in a covenant position but that the kingdom was soon to be taken from them. Mt 23:38;21:43

  If the above is truth, how is it or better asked what kind of God gives His Name and support to a people who had deviated so atrociously from His ways and for so long? The Israelites make the WTS with all it's "warts" look like saints.

  OR are we to deduce from this that Jehovah is the kind of God that could accept and work with such wayward people today as He did in the past?

  Does this make any sense to you,as to where I want to go with this thought?

  Later,
  Martini.
• 

  Pathofthorns

  I think you make alot of sense with what you are saying. But I also think you are grasping at straws to cling to what you want to believe.

  Keep in mind if God "could accept and work with such wayward people today as He did in the past", Then could he not really accept everyone today?

  Path
• 

  Frenchy

  Martini
  Sorry I’m late in getting back to you. My life is sometimes interrupted by a need to work!

  Frenchy I need to ask you... Is it true that the Israelites were historically Jehovah's chosen people…The Israelites make the WTS with all it's "warts" look like saints… OR are we to deduce from this that Jehovah is the kind of God that could accept and work with such wayward people today as He did in the past?

  Quite an observation on your part. According to Scripture (Isaiah 43:10,12) and Jesus’ personal testimony, (John 4:22) the Israelites were God’s chosen people. Jehovah provided spectacular miracles to show that he was indeed their God. He sent prophets with predictions and miracles to substantiate their credentials. (Similarly in Jesus’ day miracles abounded around Jesus and his followers to substantiate their claims of divine backing. ) The Israelites were indeed a very stubborn and rebellious people from the very start! The Bible is very clear on this also. (Judges 2:19; Neh 9: 29-31, etc) You will also note that God punished them severely from time to time. Note the last part of Nehemiah 9: 30 and then verse 31. God was not indifferent toward their ungodly conduct. Most of the time their conduct was as bad as the nations around them. Still they were God’s people by covenant arrangement and remained so until the Messiah came and the covenant came to an end. Once again God concluded a covenant with a ‘nation’ with the coming of Jesus, a covenant prophesied by Jeremiah (Jer 31:31) and ratified by Christ himself. (Luke 22:20) Paul spoke of this new covenant in 2 Cor. 3:6. He identified this new covenant as being the one prophesied by Jeremiah in his letter to the Hebrews where he mentions this new covenant four times. It may also be noted at this time that the early Christian congregation was not without its problems as well. (Ro 2:23; 1 Cor 5:1; 2 Cor 12:21; Rev 2:14) Yet God accepted the congregation with all its faults.
  Your question is an extremely important one, one that cannot be dismissed easily but bears close examination and scrutiny. It deserves every sincere person’s consideration. As I have said here many times, I don’t have the answers. I’m a seeker and not a teacher. I can, however, tell you what my personal evaluation of this (I have thought about this for a very long time) has led me to conclude. Both Israel and the first century congregation were in a covenant relationship with Jehovah God. Once God entered into this covenant relationship with these people he was obligated to stick with them. And he did so until their purpose was fulfilled. To me, the big question is: “Is the WTS now in a covenant relationship with Jehovah God?” If you believe it to be then there is where you must go. If you do not believe this then it is just like all other faiths.
  If you believe that it is then you owe it to yourself to ask the question: “Where is the proof?” In each instance where God formed a covenant with a people there were credentials presented to substantiate that it was indeed God himself that was making the covenant as noted previously. The Scriptures themselves warn of impostors. (Matt 7: 15,16; Luke 21:8; Acts 20: 29; 2 Tim 3: 6,7) Claims will be made, of that we can be certain. Does it not seem reasonable that the one making the claim of being God’s representative should be able to provide unshakable credentials to that fact? Where are those credentials?
  I’m going to start a new thread on this because it’s a subject that deserves its own place, I believe.

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
• 

  Martini

  Greetings,

  Path;
  "Keep in mind if God "could accept and work with such wayward people today as He did in the past", Then could he not really accept everyone today? "

  Yes, God could, however if He decides he only wants this group..well God gets-what God wants!

  Over at H2O many former witnesses speak as though anything God does must make perfect sense.

  Why does everything about God's will and purposes have to make perfect sense? Do all things have to be logical for them to be of Divine origin?

  Our very existence is illogical! From the moment we come to life in this world many things don't make logical sense. The simple fact that no human has conclusive knowledge of where we came from or where we are going is illogical to me,don't you think? This knowledge should be fundamental to our very being.

  So it goes with religion I think. If Jehovah exists and this is the way acceptable to Him, who are we to argue? I personally cannot please God if pleasing Him means following the WTS, but then again who am I to dispute with God? Each one will reap the consequences of his/her individual decisions.

  Frenchy;

  "Does it not seem reasonable that the one making the claim of being God’s representative should be able to provide unshakable credentials to that fact? Where are those credentials? "

  But Frenchy even if there were, one must be willing to accept them as they are. With God we cannot pick and choose, can we? You would expect God's words to be reasonable to all but in the end God will have His way, whether people like it or not. If God has chosen that the Watchtower is His way, are you prepared to accept?

  Catch you later on your new thread.
  Martini
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  RedhorseWoman

  Martini, when I see evidence of a burning bush on the roof of the Bethel headquarters, or view one of the members of the GB walking across Narragansett Bay without sinking, I will definitely become active again.

  Actually, if they could just show show evidence of the Christian ideals they purport to uphold, I might be a little more convinced.