Reflections

by Frenchy 92 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Frenchy

  This ‘what if’ business might be more than many of us realize. It is what enabled me to ‘stand back’ and look at where I was, allowed me a perspective not otherwise possible. I have learned to practice this art of temporary disbelief of ‘reality’ and indulge in speculation of what I ‘know’ is not true. Strangely enough as I developed this…what shall I call it?…practice of pure speculation…I found out that several things that I thought I knew were not really known to me! I had to re-learn some things while abandoning other things of which I had once been certain. Now everyone has this ability to some extent or other. Believe me when I tell you that you can develop it much further if you practice it.
  What is the value of this? It allows you to think the unthinkable. It allows the examination of things that might otherwise scare the hell out of you. ‘Knowing’ that you are just ‘supposing’ allows you to venture into places you would not ordinarily venture. It’s like a thrill ride that almost convinces you that you are plunging to your death while you are reassured by the safety belt around you that you are quite safe. In these make-believe scenarios you are held back by the safety belt of knowing that you are merely speculating. You don’t have to prove a thing, all you have to do is explore in the safety of your secure seat with the belt tightly around you. In time you will discover some amazing things. I know I did.
  Predisposed ideas and suppositions are difficult to overcome. They are encumbrances that can inhibit learning and development. They are also safety checks that keep us from venturing too far from reality. ‘What if’ temporarily turns off those checks and allows us to safely venture beyond these constraints and peer beyond the horizon of supposed or perceived reality while at the same time allowing our safe return to that reality. Upon our return, however, we sometimes find that our perceived ‘reality’ has been altered by what we have seen. We now operate from a new vantage point with the result that our horizon has been moved forward somewhat. After we are settled and confident in this new situation we make the trip again. Sometimes it may appear that we are moving backwards. That is never the case, however. Being aware that you are not as far along as you first supposed does not mean you are not making progress, it merely means that you are now more informed about your relative position.
  -----
  With that out of the way, I would like to make a point about criticism and I would appreciate your own views on this. IF the WTS were what it says that it is there would still be problems within its ranks. We have as an example of this the apostles of Jesus who were exposed to the greatest of all teachers. They argued and bickered among themselves continuously or so it would seem. This could hardly be an argument against the validity of Jesus’ claim to be Christ. This same principle I thing holds true in regards to the WTS. Criticisms against the WTS in the form of what some of its elders and R&F do can hardly be used to discredit its claims. I think it important for us to understand this. What do you think?

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
• 

  Martini

  Greetings,
  In my greetings I do not name each of you personally but rest assured I do read everyones posts and value each one.

  This thread is getting too deep for my limited computer access time.

  From my perspective each one of us is on the same boat, just at different locations, as we walk about the confined perimeter of this 'boat' we are walking in and out of the same places just at different times, sometimes we bump into eachother "in mind" at other times we seem to be at opposite ends, always on the same boat!

  All this to say that we are all experiencing the same sights and sounds of exiting the GREAT ILLUSION.

  PLEASE understand when I speak of 'apostate material' I do not mean any disrespect to anyone. According to status quo I myself may very well be an 'apostate'.

  At present I am really hurting. My teenage daughter is also hurt and confused as to "why daddy has changed".She continues to practice. I reassure her it has nothing to do with her.I wish I could tell her about the lies but I cannot go there at present she is not ready. In the meantime to her I'm looking like a "Judas". GrandMa has alot to do with this.

  Perhaps for the above said reason I wonder if this religion couldn't be salvaged somehow. That or find God literally, face to face, just so I could redeem myself with my loved ones.

  Anyway I read what you kind people are saying and yes I too wish I could spend a pleasant day with anyone of you. This way we could hear in the tone of voices that indeed we are not in disagreement.

  I would like to comment to some of you personally, please grant me to do so at my earliest convenience. Thanks,

  Martini

  Edited by - Martini on 12 November 2000 10:23:27
• 

  waiting

  Hey Martini,

  I'm sorry you're having a difficult time with your daughter. How old is she? Please keep in mind, if a teenager, they become different people about every 6 months for as many years. If you're not grey now, it will come upon you quickly. With that negativity in mind - teenagers can have a wonderful sense of humor and tell the best jokes - and are world-class eye-rollers.

  Grandparents can undermine almost any parent's standing with their child, if they want and have the opportunity. Thankfully, most don't.

  May I suggest, without knowing your situation, that you really try to sidestep religion when visiting with your daughter? Whether she lives in your house or not, make the association fun and fatherly. When I divorced my first husband, I was the "bad person" to my daughter. She worshipped him and saw the perceived good guy, so I learned to keep my mouth shut about him.

  Now that my daughter is grown up, upon meeting him for the 1st time in 15 yrs., she asked me, "why'd you marry that creep?" Then I ended up defending him - or I would look totally stupid for marrying that creep. But it felt good not to be the heavy (and no defense justifies that creep - so I was safe defending what he "could have been.")

  Please check back with us - almost all of us have parents/children who don't understand, nor accept, our leaving the WTBTS. And are blinded into believing they must cut off association with us by that corporation.

  waiting
• 

  waiting

  Hey Frenchy,

  I understand what you're saying - I just didn't understand when you first posted this thread.

  When trying to deal with incest, it was suggested that during deep thought and/or self-hypnosis, to visualize the actual event. Then slowly, with developing ability, start changing the event. Different people change the events to suit their needs/wants/ability. It became that I could actually interact with my father, asking him questions, stopping him, physically interacting with him, etc.

  Then, using the same technique, I could remake my mind/memories. As you said, this is fantasy, and does not actually change anything. I was putting words into my father's mouth. My perceptions - not reality - shapped the encounter. As with the WTBTS, the past, the reality, does not change. Sometimes our perceptions & responses to our reality can be altered.

  A similar technique is called visualization. We can manuever ourselves into viewing the same realities differently. My father was still a rapist and killer - however, I can distance myself from him now and not be enveloped by his aura. But that does not change the thing we're looking at, such as the WTBTS. The thing we're looking at is constant - only our perception has the ability to be changed by "What IF" or visualization.

  It's still the game a lot of jw's play on a local level, about local elders, problem solving, etc. That's where they live - that's where the game can actually change their lives/perceptions. Or allow them to not consider reality of their lives.

  IF the WTS were what it says that it is there would still be problems within its ranks..... Criticisms against the WTS in the form of what some of its elders and R&F do can hardly be used to discredit its claims.

  I think we understand that. There are almost an uncountable amount of false statements, misleading or outright lies, made in the literature of the WTBTS. Now, most of this "New Light To Us" has been put together by the "apostates". But they were brothers/sisters before they got to looking - just like us.

  I posted about a terribly misleading action of a local elder who was kidnapped by a mentally ill killer. The WTBTS came out in an Awake! last month, praising the elder's actions - and the fact that he "obtained" 600(!!!!!) Awakes!. It was dispicable they used this highly questionable situation where at least a half dozen persons were killed (including another jw) to sell their magazine.The dispicable action was that of the WTBTS taking advantage of a questionable moral action by one of their local elders.

  If we say "What IF" and go back to CT Russell's published teachings, there would be no Organization which controls their followers. He was against a religious organization - because of the very structure of a organization - it will develop to grow the organization - not the local elders/brothers/sisters/children. CT Russell said the religious organization would end up being just like the Catholic Church. Perhaps his only truly fulfilled prophecy?

  Btw, in order to use self-hypnosis to free one's mind - almost an oxymoron must take place within the mind. In order to free your mind, you must have a good amount of self-control and discipline to let go. For some of us here, myself included, perhaps the disillusionment and anger are still too close to the surface and we don't feel the freedom to visualize The WTBTS, Our Mother, God's Organization, The Society, as a kind, nurturing type of corporation.

  waiting
• 

  AhHah

  Frenchy,

  I have gathered a few of your quotes from this thread and pasted them below:

  Whatever can be said about the WTS one will have to admit that it is unlike anything else he has experienced. Do they have ‘the truth’ and have just mismanaged it? Why were the promises so real to us? Why do some of us still long for those things once hoped for? Is there someone else out there that has the truth? Will there ever be?

  For me, personally, I am angrier with myself than I am at them.

  The ambivalence you sense should be quite blatant I would think. There is much mixed emotion about this whole business.

  
  
  

  Even though I feel there are strong arguements somehow collectively they fall short of offering 'good news'. Sure they pick the WTS to pieces but in the end your left with an empty bag. Basically you end up with no faith, no religion, no god, no good news for a better existence. - Martini -- Exactly. This line of reasoning has resulted in many who once prayed fervently to God to now reject him entirely. It has resulted in those that once accepted the teachings of Jesus and strove to live good, decent lives to abandon it all. I cannot see how this is better than what they had before. There has to be a better way. How long must one beat a dead horse?

  Criticisms against the WTS in the form of what some of its elders and R&F do can hardly be used to discredit its claims. I think it important for us to understand this.

  Your specific comments above do NOT seem to have been offered in the context of "What If". They seem to be reflective of genuine, personal questions about the WT society doctrines and their standing with God. Am I correct?
  -
  Also, I am still wondering whether or not you have read Ray Franz's books -- because he does such an excellent job of addressing the answers to your questions and in much more exhaustive detail than would be practical on this forum.

  Edited by - AhHah on 12 November 2000 14:37:18

  Edited by - AhHah on 12 November 2000 14:54:44
• 

  Pathofthorns

  Hey Martini

  My heart goes out to you with the situation you find yourself in with your daughter. I often wonder what I would do myself if I had children at the point of finding all this out. How would i raise them from this point on?

  I don't have any answers for you, but a child in their teens likely knows you aren't perfect, that you love them and with the situation they face today in the "truth" they are headed for difficulty as one by one their friends leave.

  I wish i could say something. But i can't. I hope the best.

  Path
• 

  Frenchy

  Martini
  

  From my perspective each one of us is on the same boat, just at different locations, as we walk about the confined perimeter of this 'boat' we are walking in and out of the same places just at different times, sometimes we bump into each other "in mind" at other times we seem to be at opposite ends, always on the same boat!
  All this to say that we are all experiencing the same sights and sounds of exiting the GREAT ILLUSION.

  Beautifully put! I love that term ‘the GREAT ILLUSION’. My heart goes out to you in your dealings with your daughter. Waiting offered some good advice. Kindness, kindness, kindness, always do the kind thing.
  -------
  waiting
  

  CT Russell said the religious organization would end up being just like the Catholic Church. Perhaps his only truly fulfilled prophecy?

  I believe that it is. Isn’t it ironic that what he started ended up being what he what he was running away from?
  -------
  AhHah
  

  Your specific comments above do NOT seem to have been offered in the context of "What If".

  Obviously some are not. I have made some of my own personal observations and have commented on the observations of others as well.
  

  They seem to be reflective of genuine, personal questions about the WT society doctrines and their standing with God. Am I correct ?

  
  These are just some of the questions with which I battled for quite some time. I still have people that come up to me and ask me to resume my duties within the congregation. I have to smile and say: “Not now.” They have not yet (and perhaps never will) gotten to the point of even being able to ask the questions let alone deal with them. Perhaps some who read our posts are among those. I want them to know that they are not alone in thinking these things. I want them to know that it is not out of hate or ignorance that many of their brothers and sisters are leaving but because they now realize they can no longer in good conscience perpetuate a lie. I would like for them to know just how difficult it was for me to disentangle myself from the congregation. I would like for them to know that the elders are not the bad guys here, they are victims like everyone else. That there are bad elders proves only that they are humans, no better and no worse than anyone else.
  I have a good friend of mine who is going through hell right now on these issues. He is slowly realizing what he is into and it’s tearing at him fiercely. He is a very intelligent and passionate man and I know in the end he’ll do the right thing. It hurts me to see him hurting but there is just so much I can do and I know he has to do the rest. In the end it must be his decision.
  I have come to terms with those questions. There is no doubt in my mind that the WTS is not the voice of God. It is not what it believes itself to be.
  My comment ” Criticisms against the WTS in the form of what some of its elders and R&F do can hardly be used to discredit its claims. I think it important for us to understand this. “ was made in an effort to keep this discussion on a higher level than what is commonly maintained on some other boards, namely that of picking out isolated instances where elders did things they were not supposed to. I am hoping for responses that are more thought out than that, for what you people here feel are real and basic facts about the WTS that helped convinced you or others that it is not what it professes to be.
  I still agree with a lot of the WTS’ doctrines. And no, I have never read Ray’s books. I intend to get them, however.
  Thank you and waiting, Path, Red, Martini, Simon, and any other that I may have missed for your persistence on this thread.

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
• 

  circare

  This is such an interesting discussion and has covered a number of good points. It has stirred my grey cells to think of things from different angles and has mentioned issues that I currently 'struggle' with. I wish I had the time to respond to the many things mentioned and I thank everyone for their comments and good thoughts that have allowed this discussion to develop.

  However the point Path mentioned about bringing up children without the 'truth' is a point very close to home for me at present. I am in this position and I am worried about this. My husband and I have been unable to give our children any direction or purpose in their lives and I feel that this is a very sad thing. They are nice principled young people but….. we have managed to teach them how to look at things 'with their eyes open' and 'read between the lines' so that now they are able to see hypocrisy. The trouble is that they have become cynical and have little purpose or direction in their outlook.
  
  While my husband adamantly does not want them to give their life over to an organisation,(and up until now neither have I), now I am not so sure. I sometimes think that to believe in something that gives a purpose, direction and usefulness in life may be better than a 'nothingness'. I look at their cousins and other relatives that are 'busy in the truth' and they are happy people using their time to help others, and going to bed at night with the belief and satisfaction that they are using their life in a purposeful and meaningful way. I would have liked to have given my children a 'gift' like this. In our effort to help them to not 'live a lie' we have also 'robbed' them of some good things too.

  How I wish I had some of the 'precious things' that my parents gave me as I was growing up 'in the truth' to give to my children. I have no idea what to give in place of these.

  Perhaps this is too far off topic and I should have posted a different thread? Sorry if I have interrupted another line of thought you were all developing here.
• 

  AhHah

  Circare,

  I also have a daughter from a prior marriage whom I rasied as a JW. She is married now and has recently become very devout. She has no desire to speak with me, especially now that she knows that I am "inactive". Unfortunately, I now have no more opportunity to help her.

  If she were still young and in my care, I would attempt to help her to see the value and beauty of Christian morality, but outside of the confines and small-mindedness of the JW org and other religious organizations. I would not hesitate to read and discuss the Bible with her with that in mind. I would try to help her to understand that one can have a sense of God in one's heart. I would try to teach her and demonstrate by example how rewarding it can be to reach out to others and offer friendship and support and loving-kindness where ever opportunities arise in life -- with neighbors, school and work associates, and even charitable activities. This way of life is a reward in itself, and does not require a formal religious organization to be taught and understood. Children learn primarily by example. Often words are not even necessary. Many children even seem naturally inclined to be the loving persons that we desire them to be. Often, they only need encouragement and good examples.

  Here is more of my philosophy on parenting, for what it is worth. Children always need to feel that they can tell you anything they are feeling, knowing that you will not reject them or scorn them when they disagree with you. They need to know that they will first be heard before you speak and that they will always be loved unconditionally. Teenagers especially need to be able to test you with words that they think will displease you, as they seek to think for themselves and become independent. Your patient and loving attitude when they challenge you (along with enforced but reasonable boundaries) will often be what is most important. Of course, each child is different as must be responded to with respect for them as an individual.

  We can continue to give our children all that is positive about the JW experience with none of the negatives. We can assist them to develop a healthy sense of themselves that is not dependent on the validation of an organization. We can allow them to properly focus much of their energy on their own personal development and education without any of the guilt that we had being raised as a JW. We can assist them to broaden their horizons and reach for their own dreams.

  Edited by - AhHAh on 12 November 2000 21:27:15
• 

  RedhorseWoman

  Circare, AhHah has some very good points, and I agree with him that having a purpose in life and accomplishing good things is not inextricably tied to a religion.

  Have you thought about getting involved with some sort of humanitarian pursuit and urging your children to join you? There are things like Habitat for Humanity, or community food banks, or helping out at animal shelters by volunteering time at adoption centers or fostering homeless animals. There are even literacy programs where you can help adults learn to read and write.

  The JW's who are going out preaching and returning home "happy" are doing no more than selling literature and garnering converts to a cult.

  As JW's, we were always taught that the only valid actions were those that supported the "Kingdom preaching work". Anything else in the line of charitable works was of no value. We need to get past this type of thinking and realize that we CAN make a difference, even if it's only in a small way. By doing something that we feel passionately about, we can instill in our children the sort of joy and commitment to a cause that the JW's have....and we can actually do some good.