Maybe There's a Heaven...

by LittleToe 141 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Just something I'd like to add on the side (but big) issue of "evil"... something which is always on the back of my mind whenever it is discussed but I rarely voice because it may sound scandalous, trivial and (at least apparently) absurd.

    As has been shown hundreds of times, from an objective standpoint "evil" (however defined) is a simple yet conclusive argument against the hypothesis of a both omnipotent and benevolent "God".

    But shifting to the subjective may change the picture completely.

    If we could measure subjective "good" and "bad" (happiness or joy vs. unhapiness or anxiety for instance) in every living human (and perhaps non-human) being we might well obtain a very different map from that which we draw using objective factors such as health, wealth, lifespan, achievement, social and familial stability or whatever. People who have travelled to dreadful places have been quite surprised to meet some very happy people -- and the reverse is true too. The smile of a dying child breaks our heart but it happens and it tells us something. And what do we know of the mouse's feeling when the chase is over and the cat finally kills it? We can study it but (as in QM) our very observation might change the result.

    This is obviously a dangerous line of thinking because it may justify passivity, conservatism or even cruelty. It certainly cannot be built into a dogma (from a subjective standpoint everything is ultimately all right): we don't know. But the very fact we don't know opens a room for doubt in our "objective" moral judgements about the course of things.

    Right or wrong, it is this kind of mystery I hear in some Bible texts (e.g. the Sermon of the Mount), once relieved of their objectivist (mis?)understanding.

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas
    Anima/animus?

    No, I was not referring to phenomenal structures at all, be they conscious or unconscious.

    The reason subjects such as this one get tossed around for thousands of years is that focus and importance is placed on the interrelationship of the phenomena of feelings, emotions and events. Such focus appears to separates "us" into the haves and have-nots, and supports and reinforces the belief and sense that "we" are all separate and isolated entities.

    I was referring to That which unites us one and all. That which all phenomenal expression unfolds in and is dependent upon. More along the lines of what Steve is sharing.

    j

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    Six:
    You're right. There can be a hereditary predisposition to mental illness, as with many physical complaints. Fortunately there are no mental health issues on either side of the family for as far back as you care to go. There's not even dementia or altzeimers. The genetic pool allows for youthful looks, ending life by old-age, heart attack, and one case of cancer.

    Personally, I don't think merely having dissasociative experiences makes one mentally ill. That would make just about everyone mentally ill. Wait, that's exactly what I think, lol.

    I actually think it possible that a person with pretty severe dissasociative experiences remains sane, depending on how they respond to those experiences. I'm reminded of an interview I heard with author Pat Conroy about the experiences that led to his book "My Losing Season". It's the story of his year under the thumb, as it were, of an extremely verbally abusive basketball coach. Somewhere in the season, as the team had played it's heart out to a half time break, but was losing, he sat in the locker room listening to the coach scream abuse at the other boys and himself. He heard a voice he didn't recognize, from a person who wasn't there, tell him clearly "don't listen to him". Conroy said about this that while the voice told him what he needed to hear at that stressful time, "it scared me too, because schizophrenia runs in my family like freckles do in some families".

    Later in the interview, he said that the voice returned often after that, and in fact he calls it "my writers voice". My point being that I would not consider Pat Conroy mentally ill, or "crazy", even though his dissasociative experience is pronounced.

    While my previous post wasn't really speaking just about you, Ross, I will say that while your family history would be interesting to the discussion if it had produced severe, obvious disassociative experiences, the truth is it wouldn't mean that you are or are not having them. Just because there can be a genetic predisposition for something, doesn't mean that there is. And for that matter, if it's Jesus, it's Jesus. And not having severe experiences doesn't even mean that your family hasn't produced tons of mild dissasociative experiences, really; again, it's a continuum. These things were not really talked about much, and I believe DID is a relatively new medical term anyway, eh?

    Btw, I kinda took from the Pat Conroy interview (Pat's father was the abusive man written about in The Great Santini, fyi) that the voice was telling him to love himself, protect himself.

  • Apostate Kate
    Apostate Kate

    My first spiritual experience was around the age of 12. I spent much time alone being the child of a single working mother at the time. Being the zealous little JW that I was I decided to read the book of John. At some point in my reading I got on my knees and asked Jesus that whatever it meant that He told Nicodemus in chapter 3, I wanted it. I wanted to be born again.

    An incredible peace and light came over me and I was filled with clarity and the deepest joy. When I shared the experience I was immediatly chastised. I buried it deep within my heart and carried on preparing for Armageddon.

    At the age of 32 I had another experience with Jesus Christ. My life has never been the same since. My wonderful journey with Jesus has been a blessed adventure. My relationship with Him is physically manifest in my life in many ways.

    One way is the miraculous healings. The miraculous ways in which He cares for me. The wounds He has healed. The guidance. The insight that goes beyond the physical. For example;

    Monday night I had a vivid dream about a friend that I had lost contact with (neglected to keep in touch) for about 4 years. Tuesday she was on my heart all day. Wednesday I looked through a rarely used drawer and found a phone book from 1996 that had her number in it. I tried the number and lo and behold she still had the same number, HOWEVER, she is moving out of state in less than8 weeks. She is also facing a dangerous surgery this month and now I can support her. I feel responsible that I have not been the friend to her that I should, I feel that God revealed my sin to me and now I can make it right. I can apologize, give her the love and support she needs. She was there for me when I was shunned for my experience with Jesus in 1992. She had been my neighbor. Now I can be there for her.

    How could I have known she was having surgery, had lost several members of her family in death, and was moving in 6 weeks after the surgery? I could not have known. But God knew. This type of "mystical" experience is the daily norm.

    Those that have had these experinces are nothing new under the sun.

    ....The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don't know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."~Jesus

  • toreador
    toreador
    Apostate kate wrote: At the age of 32 I had another experience with Jesus Christ. My life has never been the same since. My wonderful journey with Jesus has been a blessed adventure. My relationship with Him is physically manifest in my life in many ways.

    Care to elaborate?

    Tor

  • binadub
    binadub

    jst2laws wrote:

    In my personal journey I have gone from duped believer to rational agnostic. Since studying QM and the new science of consciousness I have come full circle to believing, not in a mythical god but, that there is far more to life than this human experience. And surprisingly it boils down to being "all about love, light, and life" as LT said in his first post. I'm more open now to feelings and experience in an area where tangible prove and factual answers cannot be expected.

    That was an interesting post, Steve. What you describe is my launching point for faith. My Christian faith grows from further delving along that line.
    How are ya? ~Ros

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Steve,

    Many thanks for your post and am glad to see you writing on the Board again.

    I wonder whether you might expand a little on this aspect of 'love' and quantum mehanics. I am not sure if we are on the same page here.

    Yet, the most successful science of the 20th century, quantum mechanics, discovered that at the subatomic level the scientific method has broken down and we can no longer observe without becoming part of the experiment, even affecting it's outcome.

    Steve, as you know, the Latin 'quantum' means 'how much' and implicit in its meaning is the discipline of the observable and measurable , imho when a discipline stops being measurable it stops being 'quantum', but becomes a form of mysticism, even beyond the philosophic. That we have *at present* reached the borders of what is tangible, observable and measurable does not guarantee a future without measurement and as what we do know about what has been measured, or 'quantum', has been built on a foundation of science. Imho there is an expectation of answers. That we become part of the measurement does not disqualify its validity, or its outcome if the scientific method is at that time applied.

    The result is that most great scientist in this field slowly become philosophers or even mystics.

    I could not agree more Steve, but I find this worrying not satisfying. Have you read Janeen Hunt's 'Quantum Mechanics - What Is Wrong With It And How To Fix It'? She outlines many of my suspicions as to how and why quantum mechanics turns at a certain point from science to a mysticism that lives on assumptions and not rational evidence. I believe that well-meaning scientists who want life to have some sort of meaning, have made leaps of faith that belies their calling.

    This is a huge subject and I daresay we will not even dent the surface of it here on any level, but it beats working for a living.

    Cheers - HS

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Hillary:
    I'm interested in your concern over scientists becoming mystics.

    Could it be that the title "mystic" has exceedingly negative connotations to you that is skewing your perception of it (and for that matter the more rational "believer")?

    Even if a scientist becomes a mystic, can you really see him abandoning the scientific method and an appetite to label and quantify things? It really is unlikely. As I suggested earlier in the thread, surely this feeds rather than stymies growth into the undiscovered country?

  • Apostate Kate
    Apostate Kate
    Apostate kate wrote: At the age of 32 I had another experience with Jesus Christ. My life has never been the same since. My wonderful journey with Jesus has been a blessed adventure. My relationship with Him is physically manifest in my life in many ways.

    Care to elaborate?

    Tor

    I was dying in the hospital from surgical complications. Previous to this experience I had spent several years studying Greek and a little Hebrew. Untwisting what the Bible really had to say. But the Tower still owned my mind and held it captive until that night in the hospital. When I would stop breathing, I drifted off to a horrible place that I will never forget. I panicked and woke up gasping for breath. When the time came that would have been my last breath Jesus came to me in the Spirit. He lifted the veil the Watchtower had placed over my head. I received Him, believed Him, and gave Him the honor, glory and worship that He deserves. The next day my 6 day fever broke, a malfunctioning machine that was supposed to drain the contents of my stomache was discovered and replaced, my stomach was drained of gallons of blood and mucous that was drowning me, my paralized intestines woke up. I was alive like I had never been before. Now I know what I will see when my body dies. I have no doubts. When Jesus touches your life, you are changed. John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien
    Regardless of where we think we may or may not end up, to me it's all about love, light, and life,

    beautiful stuff Ross. it's been a pleasure to know you my friend. you have obviously had an experience that illuminated and enlightened your being. i am sincerely glad for you. :)

    peace and blessings,

    tetra

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