Maybe There's a Heaven...

by LittleToe 141 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  LittleToe

  Hey Josh, great to see ya man. Last I heard you were heading into the wilderness again. How's it going?
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  hmike

  How refreshing to read this testimony here! And how refreshing--and surprising--to see the overwhelming response of support and acceptance--even from skeptics. Even the objecting comments were mild, and I did not see them as critcism.

  This thread developed the way it did not only because of the way you wrote, but, even more importantly, because of the reputation you have established here. I doubt anybody else here would have gotten the positive reactions from so many as you did. Not only is this a tribute to you personally, but do you realize it speaks for all of us who consider ourselves to be level-headed, intelligent Christians? In your time here, you've helped demonstrate that Christians are not simply brainwashed people out of touch with reality, surrendering their abilities to investigate, question, and reason. A lot of non-Christians do have this opinion about us, as can be seen in posts that have appeared in this forum (but not in your thread), and, yes, there are some bad witnesses (not referring to JW), so it's always great to see a counter-example like yours. There is no need to defend your words to critics.

  Your post does raise a legimate question, namely, what is the significance of personal experience to others? Both the experience and interpretation are subjective, and the experience cannot be tested, measured, or even verified. And for yourself, did you ever see this experience as a kind of call on your life? For an experience so powerful and unique, do you ever ponder what it means, or why it happened?
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  wannaexit

  LT

  I read this thread with interest. I am like many here that would love to have what you have found. I always think of what Jesus said that If we had faith the size of a mustard seed we could move mountains. Perhaps its all in how much faith we have.

  One thing is true for me now that I truly understand is that I do long for the Christ. Perhaps one day I'll get to feel what you feel.

  Thanks for sharing

  Wanna
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  LittleToe

  Your post does raise a legimate question, namely, what is the significance of personal experience to others? Both the experience and interpretation are subjective, and the experience cannot be tested, measured, or even verified. And for yourself, did you ever see this experience as a kind of call on your life? For an experience so powerful and unique, do you ever ponder what it means, or why it happened?

  In Christian circles "damascus road conversions" aren't all that common, but often bring high expectations to the effect of "everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him" Luk.12:48.

  I find myself regularly raising an eyebrow when people say that they are "interested" in what happened, as if it might satisfy some intellectual curiosity. Or else they claim that they wish such and such a thing would happen to them, to help cast aside their doubts. They've often already had an answer but don't like the one they got, or are so busy comparing and coveting that of another that they neglect the one talent that they have already received. IMHO most of the time people don't know what they are asking, and I include myself in that.

  Shortly after my initial epiphany I had two prayers; that I would be taught as fast as I could bear, not knowing my own potentials; and that I would be a tool in His hands. I never once suspected what a rollercoaster was before me, or the people I would have the pleasure of coming into contact with.

  While life has it's ups and downs, for all that I can still say "the Lord is good!".
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  Narkissos

  Ross:

  In Christian circles "damascus road conversions" aren't all that common, but often bring high expectations

  It's strange when an independent experience suits the collective "mythology" (this term I don't mean in any derogative way) of a group you are introduced to later. I attended Evangelical churches and circles after leaving the JWs on christological grounds, and I found the response there both fascinating and somewhat disturbing (for the potential of misunderstanding and the temptation to conform your personal narrative and attitude to what people expect).

  I remember one meeting where I told a bit about my "experience" and although I was quite cautious about wording it in the least possible "expected" terms, the chairman made the comment "I find it amazing that such an experience can happen without any evangelistic preaching" -- I replied: "What I find amazing is that any genuine experience can happen where it is planned and expected". Not sure he understood what I meant.

  that I would be taught as fast as I could bear

  A very wise prayer indeed.

  tetrapod:

  Glad you're back Josh.
• 

  LittleToe

  Didier:
  My experience of being introduced to Christian circles sounds similar to your own. In my own case, simply through bible reading, I had come to a doctrinal position in accordance with the Westminster Confession of Faith. I had never read nor discussed it, even though it transpired that it was a staple of the local church scene (regardless of denomination). I didn't know that until afterwards, of course.

  As you suggest, I must confess that when there is almost an expectation of such things you have to wonder about how they might verify them, hence my earlier quote about identical experiences demonstrating a likelihood of lying. The risk of conformity is there, of course, but I think that being aware of it and being grounded in a place such as this webboard is a good first line of defense.

  As you are no doubt aware, I subsequently started studying a variety of frameworks of belief. While there are some points of commonality I continue to find Christianity to be the best fit to my own experiences. Not bad for 1600 years of apostacy, huh?
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  drew sagan

  I find myself regularly raising an eyebrow when people say that they are "interested" in what happened, as if it might satisfy some intellectual curiosity. Or else they claim that they wish such and such a thing would happen to them, to help cast aside their doubts. They've often already had an answer but don't like the one they got, or are so busy comparing and coveting that of another that they neglect the one talent that they have already received. IMHO most of the time people don't know what they are asking, and I include myself in that.

  
  
  So true.
  
  I find it fascinating that the most basic things in life are the same things that end up leading us to some of the most fundamental changes we expierance. All throughout the past year (actually since August of 05') I found myself on a path that lead me out of the Watchtower. What I find most interesting about my own expierance during this time is how deeply rooted teachings and beliefs where engrained in to my consciousness. Up untill just 3-4 months ago I was constantly thinking about Bible prophecy, the Trinity, and a large number of other 'Witness like' topics. Even though I understood much of what I had learned from the Watchtower to be false, I clung to many of their teachings and positions thinking them to very true and important.
  
  For a long time I was trying so hard to intellectually become a more spiritual person. And of couse this just does not work. Instead my path to a greater understanding came from something much more basic. The simple act of humbling myself. I don't know when it exactly happened, but at one point I realized that I was putting to much focus on trying to dig deep and 'understand' all of these issues. I wasn't making any progress because I was still to pround to challenge things I was so sure where truth, even after realizing the WTS was false. Everything changed after I truely humbled myself and asked for true guidence in prayer. I knew I couldn't be my own teacher anymore.
  
  When telling others about my expierance through the JWs and everything I know believe I allways find myself coming back to this major point of becoming humble. It may seem like such a simple thing, but when we let go of our pride we can expierance so much more. It changed my faith.
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  LittleToe

  Drew:
  Thanks for sharing a little of your own journey. It's been interesting watching you evolve in tone and content, over the last year or so.

  An inevitable question to keep the discussion going: Is humility a reaction of the heart or an act of will?
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  Apostate Kate

  An inevitable question to keep the discussion going: Is humility a reaction of the heart or an act of will?

  IMHO...

  an act of will

  In my life experience it seems that we humans are prone to having a sense of pride. It is natural for us to want to critisize others, put them down in order to lift ourselves up.

  We also judge and ridicule. It comes naturally. The message of the Bible says that God is holy, loves us, and we are born in sin thus separated from Him, and there is nothing we can do to remedy that but to humbly accept what Jesus did for us.

  That automatically causes some to humbly ask for forgivness when we see the sin nature inside ourselves. Then the teachings of Jesus become clear. The fact that Jesus was holy, had no sin, but willingly suffered to pay the price for my sin, is humbling and makes one fall in love with Jesus.

  Matthew 23:12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.~Jesus
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  Terry

  About 2 years ago I contacted a local International Bible Student out of curiousity. He invited me to the trailer park where he and his son lived. The man's wife had died in the past year and they lived alone in their mobile home.

  All their spare time was spent promoting STUDIES IN THE SCRIPTURES by Charles Taze Russell. They put the money they earned from odd jobs into TV cable time to explain the Divine Plan of the Ages and to self-publish Russell's writings.

  I wanted to experience first hand what the religion was like PRE-RUTHERFORD's putsch which split the bible students.

  After a brief chat the man took me over to his dining table. Behind the table, mounted on the wall, was a huge chart of the DIVINE PLAN with the ages of dispensation, etc. which we've all seen at one time or other.

  He explained it from start to finish as he must have done thousands of times.

  Then, at the conclusion he said something that completely startled me. In fact, I was mostly speechless.

  He said to me: "Your father Jehovah has undoubtedly called you, Terry. Your heart has led you on this journey from hearing your father's voice speak to you in your deepest parts. There are many who have been called, but, few who have been chosen. After all you've been through with Jehovah's Witnesses, for you to still be searching must mean something is strong inside of you. Jehovah has responded to your cries and today you sit with me looking, for the first time, at YOUR HEAVENLY HOPE."

  I was in a daze!

  Why?

  I had NEVER BEEN OFFERED HEAVEN by Jehovah's Witnesses. My lot in life was the back of the bus, so to speak. I had to fly coach and not first class!

  The feeling of being accepted by my heavenly father and being told I was good enough for the best place in his mansion hit home with me like you won't believe!

  I think I can identify with Little Toe's feelings on this.

  I told my son, Nicholas, about all of this. He was 14 at the time. He looked very disappointed in me. He said to me: "Dad, you have told me so many times how much you desired a father when you were young and how it damaged your self-esteem growing up without him. You've told me that you think the reason you were easy prey for Jehovah's Witnesses is because they offered you a "father" and "brothers and sisters" as compensation for your being an only child. You've also repeatedly told me how none of the "facts" which seemed like facts were true. How can you fall for the same lies twice just so you can have a father?"

  That was enough to snap me out of it!

  Had he not spoken to me at that level I don't know where I'd be right now.

  Looking back on that time period I see fully how much I needed a place of refuge and emotional support. The fact somebody offered me anything was trigger enough for me to grasp at the heavenly straw. Heaven, after all, is the best anybody can offer. It made me feel so accepted and special and driven by purpose to the point of "being specially accepted" was more than enough to meet my needs.

  I don't say this is what happened with Little Toe. I prefer not to judge people's epiphanies since they are subjective.

  I just wanted to say I think I understand the feeling of transcendance.