God's image

by Rex B13 67 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  D wiltshire

  Abbadon,

  First hello, I don't think I ever responded to you before, so Hello.

  As to:
  

  When in hell was that a decent reasoned argument? I think being able to PROVE god exists would come before smart comments based upon the assumption of existence.

  
  My profile sign. is not an arguement, it's just a pithy saying I made up.(My opinion).

  As to:
  

  But what about the good old common sense aspect? The creator of the Universe first of all doesn’t provide incontrovertible evidence of its existence. Yeah, I know the arguments theists come up with to explain this, but they are rubbish.

  How you read the evidence is determined by what side of the issue you are on.
  Do you agree with all the evidence that atheist put forth as proof of the nonexistance of God?

  It's like prosecuting attorney, and defence attorney. Both look at the facts differently.

  Can you really, and I mean really, really look at things unbiasedly.

  I can't say, I really really can. I can only try and I emphasis TRY.

  Atheist and beleivers in God, argue because,(and this is only my opinion), if they win the arguement (in their opinion only), they feel better, it makes them feel that perhaps they are right. That is true for both sides isn't it?

  Can we really expect either side to be unbiased?

  MY pofile signature:

  If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
• 

  Julie

  Hi Siegswife--

  :Julie...What case do you think I'm trying to build? It really doesn't matter to me what you believe, I'm just trying to figure it out.

  Oh I don't know, maybe we could rephrase that to read "point you are trying to make". I think you are trying to make the point that mankind needs a god-figure in order to keep in line.

  :I know that some of you are quite convinced that the Bible is a work of fiction...fine, believe it if you will. I'm just curious what you think the alternative is.

  I do not feel a burning desire to come up with an alternative. I don't feel I need a watchdog in order to be a moral person. The bible is a fear inspiring book. I consider such methods to Machiavellian, he subscribed to the theory that "It is better to be feared than loved if you cannot be both". I have a hard time accepting that we need to live in fear of biblegod in order to "behave". But then again I don't believe in keeping children in line with fear either.

  :What do you think is the source of morality and judgement? What do you think is the answer for mankind if God doesn't exist?

  I think the source of morality and right and wrong comes from enlightenment. The more we learn and progress the better.

  :It seems to me that if God doesn't exist, then men are the source of their own morality and judgement. Who decides whose morality is superior?

  I see that many have serious problems with the idea that mankind could be the source of morality and judgement. I guess everyone could be their own judge of what is moral. I personally consider the God of the bible to have very poor morals and many of those who claimed to be "men of God" were even worse.

  :Does your belief, or lack of belief mean that someone who doesn't subscribe to the same morals as anyone else is WRONG?

  No, not at all. Everyone is free to believe as they please, at least here in the States. I see you interchange the words "belief" and "morals" freely. They are not the same thing and the sooner you understand that the sooner you will understand those who do not believe as you do. Another thing you may want to understand is that it is the *believers* who generally make the derogatory comments regarding non-believers, not the other way around. It is also the believers who are insistent that others believe as they do or they are In For It from biblegod. You won't find any non-believers making threats, veiled or otherwise, to those who Do believe.

  :And if they're wrong, what is the source of the definition of right and wrong? If no one believed in God, wouldn't they then be free to do whateverthehell they deemed to be right?

  Wait a minute. Didn't biblegod grant "free-will"? Isn't everyone already free to "do whateverthehell" they want? Do you mean if everyone were free of fear from the fierce, warring biblegod we'd all go nuts and civilization would be a thing of the past? I think not. No one I know is anxious to return to the Dark Ages, except for some hard core religious zealots (Muslim and Christian alike, right Rex?)

  :If society is what makes these determinations, how does one come to the conclusion that society is right?

  One rule of thumb I like to apply and consider is who does an idea profit and who does it benefit? If something profits no one but benefits everyone it is likely to be good (i.e. like my no-violence policy).

  :Maybe they're just on an ego trip.

  I wonder who the "they" are that you are referring to. Those who don't believe in biblegod and make their own judgements maybe?

  Julie
• 

  peaceloveharmony

  siegswife,

  you asked:

  What do you think is the source of morality and judgement?

  my answer: humans

  you asked:

  What do you think is the answer for mankind if God doesn't exist?

  my answer: humans

  you stated and asked:

  It seems to me that if God doesn't exist, then men are the source of their own morality and judgement. Who decides whose morality is superior?

  my answer: consensus. ever heard of democracy? activism? humans working for the greater good?

  you asked:

  Does your belief, or lack of belief mean that someone who doesn't subscribe to the same morals as anyone else is WRONG? And if they're wrong, what is the source of the definition of right and wrong?

  my answer: of course they are wrong!! seriously, no, to disagree with me does not make you wrong. my best friend is pro-life and a christian, we get along wonderful. i don't think she is wrong to think abortion is wrong although i think she reacts emotionally to the issue instead of rationally(which in no way makes her WRONG). but i love her and will continue to love her. i am not a fan of black/white (right/wrong) thinking. we must consider the gray matter. if my friend decided she could no longer hang with me because of my "evil" stance of pro-choice, well then i'd think she was wrong, not because of her belief in pro-life but because of her feeling of superiority in her belief.

  you asked:

  If no one believed in God, wouldn't they then be free to do whateverthehell they deemed to be right?

  my answer: no, of course not. what you are describing is anarchy. not sure about other atheists, but i'm not after anarchy.

  you asked:

  If society is what makes these determinations, how does one come to the conclusion that society is right?

  my answer: i urge you to look at history. did you know that slavery was once completely legal and so called moral christains practiced it? did you know that women and children were considered property of their husbands/fathers? you see, humans in those societies felt that it was morally wrong to keep slaves and to treat women/children as nothing more than property. social revolutions changed society's moral outlook on these issues. not god, hell, in the bible god talks about ways to control your slaves and women and children. of course, the changes in society's moral compass do not happen over night nor all at once and certainly not world-wide. alas, we are just humans, having no supernatural powers to effect change instantaniously. we must through hard work and example effect changes that benefit society as a whole.

  just my two cents
  love
  harmony

  Most people think, Great God will come from the skies, Take away everything And make everybody feel high. But if you know what life is worth, You will look for yours on earth: And now you see the light, You stand up for your rights.~~Bob Marley
• 

  conflicted

  I'm going pretty far back in this thread, but I just found it this morning.

  suntarr, you said in regards to what has god done fopr us...

  We broke the easiest of commandments: "DO NOT EAT FROM THAT TREE!" We turned our back on him. We gave up paradise and perfection under his care.

  I didn't break any such commandment, and yet I was born as an imperfect individual into an imperfect world. God got pissed at two people, and punished the entire existance of man. I never got a chance to prove myself, I was assumed guilty from birth, as we all were.

  We have to do next to nothing to enjoy benefits in paradise and perfection forever.

  I have never heard of any religion that claims all of mankind can find redemption by sitting in front of a television, or reading a book, or any other example of 'next to nothing'. In fact every religion I have ever heard of requires quite a lot of it's subjects. Number one being faith.

  Make no mistake - unfaltering, unquestioning, undeniable faith is hard. It is the hardest thing for man to do because man reasons and thinks for himself, and faith requires us to deny reason and believe the unbelievable. That is what god requires, and if you can't fulfill that requirement you are lost.

  I don't claim that god has to justify his actions to me, but at the same time, I reserve the right to not worship him. I need a reason to believe, some sort of proof to base my faith upon. He reqires my belief and faith in spite of that lack of proof.

  You claim that it's not god's fault that we don't understand his actions. I claim that it's not my fault if I that I need proof before I believe, that's how I was made.
• 

  sunstarr

  What I asked you IS on topic. You present assertions about your god and I asked for explanations on scriptures that are suposedly inspired by him. Doesn't you bible tell you to make 'a defense of your faith'?

  No, Tina. What you asked is that I use my free time to go research your previously stated arguments in another thread. That is not on topic. If you have a point to make, by all means make it. Don't expect me to go digging through old threads just because you believe you've made a good point before. As far as backing up what I believe, what question do you have for me, Tina? I see none from your last response. All I find is:

  I cannot and will not attribute these to a myth. You can bleat all you want to me. It doesn't make it so just cuz you say it is.

  I don't have to "bleat" to you anymore. So what else do you want?

  Julie:
  

  I do have a problem with anyone who makes derogatory remarks toward those who do not believe as they do...

  I am in complete agreement with you.

  Do know however that if you come onto a discussion board and make assertions you will likely be called to explain/back them up. All here are not likely to take your view as Unassailable Truth as they/we have learned enough lessons on that account.

  Perhaps I should clear something up for any who may come upon a post from me. I have never claimed my views to be the "unassailable truth" simply because I say so. I never will. So, once again, if you have a specific question for me, please feel free to ask. I will do my best to answer based on my beliefs.

  conflicted:
  

  I didn't break any such commandment, and yet I was born as an imperfect individual into an imperfect world. God got pissed at two people, and punished the entire existance of man. I never got a chance to prove myself, I was assumed guilty from birth, as we all were.

  How would you like me to respond to this? What do you expect me to say? You know very well the way the Bible explains the passing of sin to offspring. So, God created two perfect humans. They sinned. They passed that sin to all of their offspring. We are of their offspring, so we inherit sin. God was pretty much left with two other alternatives. 1)Destroy the two people and start over. 2)Scrap the project all together. Either case would result in your not being here. You would not exist. So, I guess my question is, what's your point?

  Make no mistake - unfaltering, unquestioning, undeniable faith is hard. It is the hardest thing for man to do because man reasons and thinks for himself, and faith requires us to deny reason and believe the unbelievable. That is what god requires, and if you can't fulfill that requirement you are lost.

  You seem to approach faith as if it were some kind of handicap on the part of believers. I do not believe that faith is a detriment to the nature of humans. I believe it is of benefit. Perhaps as if you were to acquire another sensory perception. Not exactly the same, but the closest I could come up with right now. I don't feel that it takes away from humans' natural process of thinking. I feel that it adds to humans' natural process of being. Therefore, I would say that it's not an incredibly difficult thing. I have faith, as do many, many people that I know. I've never once heard any of them complaining that its difficult to retain that faith.

  I don't claim that god has to justify his actions to me, but at the same time, I reserve the right to not worship him.

  You absolutely do. I couldn't agree more. You have the right not to worship Him. No one can take that away from you.
• 

  Tina

  Wrong sunstar,it IS on topic. You make assertions on the biblegod,I ask you to look at afew scrips(that are in a thread on this same page,not old and digging anything up here).What you are doing is blurting out specious assertions,and when asked for explanations,weaseling out.Nothing new under the sun here.biblethumpers do this all the time here. I will tell you once again,if one makes assertions its INCUMBANT upon them to back them up. That's how it works. YThats' what argumenation is all about.
  If you are too lazy,can't or won't,that's your right. But dont expect anyone to take you seriously. Have a nice day,I have other issues to address here.With people who are willing to dialogue honestly. ITina

  Carl Sagan on balancing openness to new ideas with skeptical scrutiny..."if you are open to the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense-you cannot distinguish useful ideas from worthless ones."
• 

  sunstarr

  Thanks for your lively babbling, Tina. Nice talking with you too. Next time be prepared to quote your scriptures in question when bringing up an argument. I'm not going to do your work for you. If you want to post your research on this thread, I'll take a look. Otherwise, don't cry when I pay little attention to your weak views of my ability to back my belief. I'll be happy to back up to the best of my ability anything that's questioned of me or my beliefs. But if YOU'RE going to be too lazy to post your own arguments, then I'm not gonna waste my time creating them for you. God bless.
• 

  conflicted

  sunstarr, you made a good point - the begining of my post was more of a rant than anything else, kind of on topic, but unanswerable notheless. Thank you for keeping me honest.

  As to my question of the difficulty of faith - I too know many many people who 'claim' to have faith, and yet they lead their lives to the contrary. I also know many people who lead fruitful, content and peaceful lives without the benefit of religious convictions.

  I directed my question specifically to you as a person who seems to have an abundance of faith and my lack thereof could benefit from your experience, or you from mine. So please bear with me if I go off topic, I'll return eventually.

  I was a person of faith at one time. I beleved in the promises that god made, I believed in the sacrifice of Jesus - all of it, I was a believer and I defended my belief to those of little faith, as you do now. Then I found out that my beliefs were wrong.

  Some people leave the JW religion and find it easy to put their faith in another belief system, I do not.

  I take faith very seriously - it is a relationship between a person and god. Going through the motions and not really believing isn't good enough, you have to believe with everything you are, and I did. Some people are rewarded for their faith, I was punished for mine. I don't blame god for my negative experience with the JWs, but my faith is broken - I can't fix it, I don't know how.

  Faith is the hardest thing we can give. Putting everything I have and believe on the chopping block and waiting to see if I chose correctly, what could be harder than that?

  You said you think faith is like an extra sense that allows you to be closer to god. What happens when that sense is covered by experience - my relationship with god has foundered to the point that I don't even know if he exists or not.

  I don't know if you are going to respond, or how, but in this light how can you say faith is easy?
• 

  Tina

  lol You are truly ignorant. My scrips are on this page,as I said.Who is lazy? lol weasel weasel weasel blather blather blather,you fool.oooooo I love your tolerance lol. You make afool of yourself.Ta ta dearie,you ARE a time waster here. lol

  Carl Sagan on balancing openness to new ideas with skeptical scrutiny..."if you are open to the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense-you cannot distinguish useful ideas from worthless ones."
• 

  sunstarr

  Tina. Please read carefully before opening your mouth to insert a foot. Let me hold your hand while I walk you through this. Ok, here we go...are you ready....you sure?? I said:

  If you want to post your research on this thread, I'll take a look.

  You referred me to:

  Explain the love,enlightenment and righteousness in the list of scriptures I wrote in the "Bilbe advances womens rights' thread.

  The operative word here is "thread." Not page. Would you like me to go into a further explanation of the difference? You seem to be lacking in understanding of what I'm saying. Post your argument within this thread, or leave me alone. Pretty easy, isn't it? So, thanks for nothing, and good day to you.

  Conflicted:

  I'll be right with you. Had to take care of some mundane business.