by Rex B13 67 Replies latest jw friends
I brought the real old thread back to the top for you sun(yeah real old Sept 23 LOLOL) dont YOU dare talk about who is lazy here! old-I'll tell you the title AGAIN'The bible advances womens rights'...now get yer your foot out of your mouth.
Carl Sagan on balancing openness to new ideas with skeptical scrutiny..."if you are open to the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense-you cannot distinguish useful ideas from worthless ones."
I'm gonna try to make this as clear as I can:
PUT YOUR ARGUMENT IN THIS THREAD OR LEAVE ME ALONE.
You think you picked it up this time?
Sunstarr:
I am a Christian also. And yes, all good things come from God--I feel the hurt you feel also in thread's like this. Some days I want every person to understand of how great Jesus Christ is, that he is the giver of life, he is salvation and help them see the love he has for creation, but that can never happen. My husband and I had a deep discussion last night about faith and that there's a bigger spiritual battle going on that we have no control over. We do our part to share the gospel (2 Cor. 5:20--"We are Christ's representatives, and through us God is caling you. We beg you on behalf of Christ to become reunited with God"), but then we leave it to the Holy Spirit.
After leaving the JWs, I have such a love for people now, it's awesome! People are totally and completely free to believe as they want to believe, they accept Jesus or they don't. It's such a wonderful freedom, I don't feel like I have to "convert" everyone I met like when I witness to them now. I share Jesus, let them see him in me and move on. No "are you coming to the Kingdom Hall with me?" It's so great. Jesus said "Those who believe in me will do the things that I am doing." It's so simple.
Just wanted to share my joy, though this is off topic from the thread. Bye! :)
sunstarr, you made a good point - the begining of my post was more of a rant than anything else, kind of on topic, but unanswerable notheless. Thank you for keeping me honest.
Anytime. Just make sure to return the favor when I get out of line.
As to my question of the difficulty of faith - I too know many many people who 'claim' to have faith, and yet they lead their lives to the contrary. I also know many people who lead fruitful, content and peaceful lives without the benefit of religious convictions.
Agreed. I too have seen the same. I couldn't go as far as to say that it's impossible to lead a content and peaceful life without faith. I simply suggest that it adds to the quality of life.
I take faith very seriously - it is a relationship between a person and god. Going through the motions and not really believing isn't good enough, you have to believe with everything you are, and I did. Some people are rewarded for their faith, I was punished for mine. I don't blame god for my negative experience with the JWs, but my faith is broken - I can't fix it, I don't know how.Faith is the hardest thing we can give. Putting everything I have and believe on the chopping block and waiting to see if I chose correctly, what could be harder than that?
I suppose I can somewhat understand what you are saying. I am always hurt when I hear of the difficulties many have faced from leaving the JW's. I know of many myself. It's a horrible thing to be done to a person. So to you, I send my greatest of sympathy. I guess I should rephrase what I said about faith. To me, it is an easy thing to have. I imagine that is because I already hold faith. For someone without, I suppose it could be a very difficult thing to gain. So, I don't disagree with that perspective. I do, however, believe that those searching for faith will be given a measure of help from God to make the journey a little less difficult. But again, it must always be a personal decision to search or not. As I've said many times before, I'll never condemn a person for their decision.
You said you think faith is like an extra sense that allows you to be closer to god. What happens when that sense is covered by experience - my relationship with god has foundered to the point that I don't even know if he exists or not.
I would certainly agree that perspective can be tainted by experience. I feel that faith and experience can go hand-in-hand. Of course, those of us that have left the Witnesses may find it a little more difficult to balance these two. I can most definitely see how it would be hard to have faith in God when your relationship with Him has reached that point. I must say that I am deeply relieved that you don't blame God. It saddens me that you question His existence, but I would never condemn you for that. You must be who you are.
sunstarr, I must commend you on your openmindedness. I have heard and dealt with the other end of the spectrum far too often.
So many 'christians' are ready to condemn people who don't believe as they do. It's refreshing to discuss topics of a religious nature with someone who believes differently and not get into a pissing match.
Okay, back to the subject at hand.
I do, however, believe that those searching for faith will be given a measure of help from God to make the journey a little less difficult. But again, it must always be a personal decision to search or not.
I will comment on this part of your response, as it pertains to something I am doing right now. I post here regularly, but have never revealed my spiritual nature other than my question in my belief in the christian god. After I left the witnesses I was happy without any religion - I'm happy now. The difference between then and now is that now I am searching. And I am finding quite a measure of peace in zen teachings. Not necessarily bhudism, that is a misconception of western culture, zen and bhudism are for the most part practised together, but they are mutually exclusive. And I find the teachings of zen to be enlightening and peaceful. It is about finding balance in the world, in others and in yourself. It is not a religion, but a way to bring peace and tranquility into your life.
I don't know how this relates to faith or god, since zen isn't a religious practice without bhudism, but I don't feel alienated from my spriritual self the way I do with christianity.
I don't know what I said, but I said something.
After I left the witnesses I was happy without any religion - I'm happy now.
I'm overjoyed that you've found happiness from such a cruel transition as leaving that organization. My case is similar. I left the Witnesses and decided to never again label myself with another religious title. Although I stay within the Christian realm (which could be considered a label in and of itself), I wish to never fall under such categories as Catholic, Baptist, Protestant, etc... Of course, I'm not suggesting that there's anything wrong with people who do fall under these categories. I simply never want to.
And I find the teachings of zen to be enlightening and peaceful. It is about finding balance in the world, in others and in yourself. It is not a religion, but a way to bring peace and tranquility into your life.
I was taught as a Witness that balance is necessary in most aspects of life. I don't disagree with that now. I think balance is very important. I haven't really studied teachings of zen, so I'm not too familiar with them. I'd say, if it brings you peace, more power to you. That can be a difficult thing to find these days.
I have a question for you. Do you feel that searching is only a means of finding your path, or do you believe that the search is the beginning of your path, and that the search will in some way always continue?
I personally believe that there will always be a search. I have faith in God, yet I am still searching for a better relationship with him and a greater understanding of his will for me. Although I feel I've found my path, I believe my search continues and probably always will. I look forward to your thoughts on this matter.
Sunstarr--
Here are the scriptures from the thread Tina refers to. She has hit her limit in posting and so I post them because she cannot. They are all to d with treatment of women.
*** Rbi8 Genesis 3:16 ***
16 To the woman he said: “I shall greatly increase the pain of your pregnancy; in birth pangs you will bring forth children, and your craving will be for your husband, and he will dominate you.”
*** Rbi8 1 Corinthians 11:6 ***
6 For if a woman does not cover herself, let her also be shorn; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered.
*** Rbi8 1 Corinthians 11:7-9 ***
7 For a man ought not to have his head covered, as he is God’s image and glory; but the woman is man’s glory. 8 For man is not out of woman, but woman out of man; 9 and, what is more, man was not created for the sake of the woman, but woman for the sake of the man.
*** Rbi8 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 ***
As in all the congregations of the holy ones, 34 let the women keep silent in the congregations, for it is not permitted for them to speak, but let them be in subjection, even as the Law says. 35 If, then, they want to learn something, let them question their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in a congregation.
*** Rbi8 1 Timothy 2:11-14 ***
11 Let a woman learn in silence with full submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and came to be in transgression.
*** Rbi8 Judges 19:22-30 ***
22 While they were making their hearts feel good, look! the men of the city, mere good-for-nothing men, surrounded the house, shoving one another against the door; and they kept saying to the old man, the owner of the house: "Bring out the man that came into your house, that we may have intercourse with him." 23 At that the owner of the house went on out to them and said to them: "No, my brothers, do not do anything wrong, please, since this man has come into my house. Do not commit this disgraceful folly. 24 Here are my virgin daughter and his concubine. Let me bring them out, please, and YOU rape them and do to them what is good in YOUR eyes. But to this man YOU must not do this disgraceful, foolish thing."
25 And the men did not want to listen to him. Hence the man took hold of his concubine and brought her forth to them outside; and they began to have intercourse with her, and kept on abusing her all night long until the morning, after which they sent her off at the ascending of the dawn. 26 Then the woman came as it was turning to morning, and fell down at the entrance of the man's house where her master was,-until daylight. 27 Later her master rose up in the morning and opened the doors of the house and went out to get on his way, and, look! the woman, his concubine, fallen at the entrance of the house with her hands upon the threshold! 28 So he said to her: "Rise up, and let us go." But there was no one answering. At that the man took her upon the ass and rose up and went to his place.
29 Then he entered his house and took the slaughtering knife and laid hold of his concubine and cut her up according to her bones into twelve pieces and sent her into every territory of Israel. 30 And it occurred that everybody seeing it said: "Such a thing as this has never been brought about or been seen from the day that the sons of Israel went up out of the land of Egypt down to this day. Set YOUR hearts upon it, take counsel and speak."
Julie
I have a question for you. Do you feel that searching is only a means of finding your path, or do you believe that the search is the beginning of your path, and that the search will in some way always continue?
The answer to this depends upon what one is searching for. I started out looking at the basic teachings of the major religions solely for educational purposes. You can't carry out an informative conversation of the worlds religions without at least a rudementary knowledge of their teachings - that's what I was looking for. When I looked up zen-bhudism I learned that they are separate. Bhudism and zen can be taught independant to one another, so I chose to read up on the zen part first.
I was very interested in what I was reading, and my search changed to one of a more in-depth search this one subject. I suppose that one day will come when I will learn all I want from zen, and I'll move on to something else.
But I believe I'll never stop looking for answers, educationally, or religiously.
...is of course, the usual state of things here. What's surprising is that they think pulling scriptures out of context, isolating Mosaic Law mean't for one purpose and one time, is somehow refuting scripture.
They like to ignore the fact that Jesus is the revealed Yahweh and He sets the mark, not any organisation nor any other pious individual. We relate scripture to Him and we interpret scripture by His life amongst mankind.
Christianity is based on the LIFE, death and RESURRECTION of Christ. You can take it all as literal or practically none of it as literal, yet if your believe on Jesus, repent of your sins and accept Him in grace through faith then you are sealed and bound for glory.
Where is your altruistic and purposeful human goverment, has any really worked (in the long run) to benefit mankind? NO
Does communism work for the benefit of mankind? NO. How many millions died and still die under this hegemony?
Does capitalism and free trade work for the benefit of mankind? NO
Will the almighty dollar bring you peace and security? NO
Where is your great, reputable science and why does it find itself faced with several question for every answer they (think) they find?
Oh yes, science has advanced the methods of death and destruction to unparalelled heights! Let's not forget that!
Mankind without God is on a highway to hell, like it or not, the Bible is the 'wager of Pascal' and even with its alleged warts, its the most likely inspired source of God's revealed will and purpose for mankind.
Atheists and athettes, always trumpet their superior 'intellect and ethics' while supporting things like abortion (baby murder), the holy right to spread STDs like AIDS and hepatitus (of several types) just for their own selfish, destructive lifestyles, the rights of criminals over the rights of victims and the list goes on and on.
They insist on the right to live without God, then, when things blow up and fall apart around them they blame God for their own free will choices! What a galling bit of arrogance and hypocrisy!
Guess what, America (and maybe Europe) are waking up to the lies of the liberal/no God agenda and that agenda is now becoming politically incorrect! People are seriously rethinking their lives and the road they are traveling is being recognized as quicksand.
This is like 'shooting fish in a barrel'!
Cheers,
Rex
Ah the reclusive sage surfaces--
Let us inspect the pearls of wisdom he has cast before us:
:Atheists and athettes, always trumpet their superior 'intellect and ethics'
Funny Rex--you *never* refute anything I answer you with. Never. Does credibility mean anything to you Rex? Do you realize the way *not* to obtain it is emotional rants like this one (and the thousand that came before this one)?
:while supporting things like abortion (baby murder),
I am not big on name calling but it applies here-- you are the biggest hypocrite on this board. You can cut and paste reems of information excusing wholesale slaughter by your venegeful, petty biblegod but if someone doesn't bring a child into the world that maybe they cannot support/take care of, they are murderers. As long as you are ok with wholesale slaughter you have no right to speak on the topic of abortion. Unless you enjoy wallowing in your filthy hypocrisy. The same holds true for all those right-to-lifers. Few of those people give a rip what happens to the child after the womb. I consider myself a proponant of Right-to-a-Decent-life.
:the holy right to spread STDs like AIDS and hepatitus (of several types) just for their own selfish, destructive lifestyles, the rights of criminals over the rights of victims and the list goes on and on.
Yeah, there's no believers who practice unprotected, illicit sex, are there? Not one bible-thumping believer out there with an STD, eh? Spare your dramatic blather you lunatic.
:They insist on the right to live without God, then, when things blow up and fall apart around them they blame God for their own free will choices!
How can we blame something we don't believe in? We don't insist on our right to not believe in God (we don't have to since you don't make the laws Mr. Taliban-wannabee), we merely insist you and folks like you prove/back up your ridiculous assertions. You've yet to do that Rex, how about now?
:What a galling bit of arrogance and hypocrisy!
You should quit looking in the mirror Rex.
:Guess what, America (and maybe Europe) are waking up to the lies of the liberal/no God agenda and that agenda is now becoming politically incorrect!
Taking responsibility for our own actions is becoming incorrect? Where do you get your info? The day we let lunatics like you into the secular system will never come.
:People are seriously rethinking their lives and the road they are traveling is being recognized as quicksand.
Yes, Rex, people are waking up to the fact that they have been worshipping a homicidal maniac all their lives who is, in reality, a myth created to keep people in line with fear. It is a rude awakening at first but watching fanatics like you rant serves to confirm all that many learn about and dislike when they read the bible.
:This is like 'shooting fish in a barrel'!
I imagine shooting yourself in the foot (as you do all the time) would indeed be as easy as shooting fish in a barrel. I guess as long as you enjoy--it have at it. Enjoy!
Thanks for helping me to share the Happy News of biblegod!!
Julie
