by peacepipe 81 Replies latest jw friends
penn,
I was speaking of the atrocities that occured in the name of religion which go way way back to the beginning of history up to today. I agree about Stalin etc. If numbers were totaled from religious wars alone it would far out do the men you mentioned.T
Carl Sagan on balancing openness to new ideas with skeptical scrutiny..."if you are open to the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense-you cannot distinguish useful ideas from worthless ones."
Dear Peacepipe,
Great to see your post! I sense that you feel a bit confused right now. But believe it or not, you're in a good place: you're asking questions. You're asking the right questions. To me, your post indicates that your ole thinker is alive and kicking, and demanding answers. The good/bad news is, that no one person or philosophy contains them (the answers). Because right now, the human race cannot be blanketed in one reality, esp. that of fundamental religion (i.e., we will never ALL be Muslim, neither will we ALL ever be Christian). Although Jesus taught some really good, enlightened things, Buddha taught some really good, enlightened things, as did Muhammed (believe me, I read ALL these guys, and more, however, just a side note: Buddha did not ever claim to be "the chosen one", nor did he seek to blanket the earth in his morality.) The human race up till now, and I feel for a bit longer is like an orchestra warming up before a beautiful symphony. We are masters at our particular instruments, and you have the wind section (just for kicks, I'll mentally place Christianity there--hehehe--no offense, Christians, but damn, you guys like to talk), you have your percussion section (muslims?) hehehe, etc. We're all banging about, sounding like we'll never congeal into a symphony, but we will. When we learn that the highest thing we can do is love. I like atheists, and humanists because they usually do good deed from their heart--like the difference between a musician in that orchestra who has to follow every note precisely on a piece of sheet music, and a musician who can pick up any instrument and play by ear--it is for the love of the music that true musicians play.
Now, where was I? I'll just sum up to say: you're going in the right directions by asking all these pesky questions. You ask them more of yourself, than anyone else, methinks. Freethought awakens in you, girl! Go with it....
and remember: "Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect." Krishnamurti
Love,
Bridgette
Brig- What do you think about the guys that crashed into the WTC? What instruments were they playing? Were they misled into false religion?
Penn
Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me."
Uncle Penn,
: Hmm, why don't you go pick up a Guiness Book of World Records and look up mass murder.
: Lenin, Stalin and Mao Tse Tung have killed 100 million + people, all with the belief that there is no God! Talk about an unholy Trinity.
There are several problems with this line of reasoning. While Lenin, Stalin and Mao were atheists we can be confident that not all of their troops were also atheists, too. Particularly with Lenin and Stalin, one could assume that a large percentage of their troops were not atheists. Yes, they killed, but they did so under the threat of being shot for treason if they didn't.
Another problem is the motives for the killing done at the behest of these three men. Was it done primarily to promote and further establish atheism as a (non) belief system?
On the otherhand, religious war no doubt had conscripted atheists in their ranks, too.
It is easy to identify wars in recorded history whose primary goal was religious. It is probably impossible to identify ANY war of consequence whose primary goal was to establish and entrench atheism.
Since you only mentioned three men in modern times, you've committed what is know as a "biased sample" logical fallacy. The real question is that in all of recorded history, how many mass murders have been commited in the name of religion and how many have been committed in the name of atheism.
I have no conclusions to offer, because it may not even be possible to make an informed conclusion based upon the evidence available.
I DO know that there are hundreds, no thousands of wars in man's history that were religious wars, and I don't know of ONE war in man's history that was an "atheist" war. Do you?
Farkel
"When in doubt, duck!"
Farkel, thanks for the interesting reply, although I'm not buying it! You also have commited a logical fallacy. First of all, argumentum ad ignorantium. You based your argument on something that is not provable. I cannot prove that the soldiers didn't believe in God, therefore the murders were not done in the name of atheism. You are also borderlining the slippery slope fallacy. Isn't it fair to claim that the actions made by a leader reflect his world view? If a man kills millions of people to create his idealistic society, namely one without belief in God, does that not qualify?
Penn
Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me."
Tina,
You posit what if atheists ran the world,then proceed to describe a hedonistic anarchic behaviors.
My post said(you can find it in whole at the beginning of this thread)
I know that some hospice workers who work with terminally ill patients use visualization methods to help the patient cope with their death. It puts them in a safe place of comfort, love and peace. I often thought that is the sole purpose of religion. To get your mind to skip over this horrid realization so you can live your life to the fullest without having to be troubled with that black cloud. Because I asked the question in another post what the world would be like if all people were atheists and there were no religions. What would be the moral thread to keep goodness in society? Why would some people care if all they did was get high, drunk, sleep with whoever the want, kill others etc. If you could get away with it then so what? You live, you die. Get what you can because it's all you'll ever have.
and I said:
If we had a world of no religion, Everyone was an atheist, Religion was long gone. . . .
I said nothing about if atheists ran the world. I was asking a hypothetical question of WHAT WOULD THE WORLD BE LIKE IF ALL PEOPLE WERE ATHEISTS AND THERE WAS NO RELIGION. However, if I was misunderstand that is fine. I write as the words come to me I don't sit here and write out a rough draft, good copy, final copy, proofread etc. So that stands as my original question which I gave my answer to what I think it would be like. I thought it would be interesting to see what others would think about that kind of world not just sit and debate over whether or not I was picking on atheist. I am an atheist Tina. I have no strong belief in anything right now. I am a good person. I do have a loving, happy family of my own. But there is alot of bad in the world. I just don't know what the answers are but it is fun to hear others thoughts on the matter.
Thanks again for your thoughts
PeacePipe
Lift me up, I've had enough. . .Tom Petty
Tina,
Hi again. I did an edit and took "ATTN TINA" out of subject heading. I just wanted to make sure you saw the post since it was an extension of another thread. Also I wanted to apologize if I came across. . .well I don't how I came across but nonetheless when I was posting last night I was a bit cranky and alot sick of this board(no offense anyone) I was tired of trying to come across as being nice and just wanting to talk about stuff that interests me because I always have that one person or so who says something rude or sarcastic(not paticularly your post but just in general) and I figured well, if they want someone to argue with then I'll argue-I'm in the mood. But frankly I'm just here to learn, and talk with people of like interests and maybe make some friends. I can tell you I'm not a professional poster. This is my first and only chatting place.
LDH/Farkel,
I will read up on Secular Humanism. Farkel, the way you said about me not knowing about it was, I take it, an insult but that's ok. If that's what you need to say so be it. If I'm not mistaken you've insulted me before on this board as well. Once again if that is your purpose, fine. If not, sorry if I misunderstood. LDH, when I have time I'll check into website you suggested. Maybe I'll let you know how it goes, maybe not. I'm finding this board is becoming to time consuming and I need to try and not get so caught up in it. But I do appreciate your information.
UnclePenn, Julie, Bridgette, Silverleaf, Waiting: Thanks all for your replies. You all seem to take it a little easier on us sensitive types. :)
Bridgette, especially thanks. You always come across to me as very understanding to my strange and twisted mentality even if it is not up to par in comparison to some of the other enlightened minds here.
(((((hugs to all))))) and this is why: despite any differences, we all have a common bond which is posting on this board. I unfortunantly have a negative feeling about our near future and I am concerned for the entire inhabited earth. No one can afford to have any anger in their heart at this point. Love can only start with one to another, in our homes, on our computers and hopefully maybe somehow it will reach to the far ends of the earth and maybe just maybe all will be well. I just don't know.
PeacePipe
Lift me up, I've had enough. . .Tom Petty
Farkel, I was just thinking, maybe looking at that face with the tongue hanging out just gives me the impression of na, na , na, na, na. And that impression stays with me when I read your posts. Plus that guy always gave me the creeps. I thought he was demonic.
: You also have commited a logical fallacy. First of all, argumentum ad ignorantium. You based your argument on something that is not provable.
Wrong. An argument has to have assertions and a conclusion. I made no conclusion. Instead, I said:
: I have no conclusions to offer, because it may not even be possible to make an informed conclusion based upon the evidence available.
I DO know that there are hundreds, no thousands of wars in man's history that were religious wars, and I don't know of ONE war in man's history that was an "atheist" war for the sake of promoting atheism. Do you?
: Isn't it fair to claim that the actions made by a leader reflect his world view?
Yes, that is a fair claim.
: If a man kills millions of people to create his idealistic society, namely one without belief in God, does that not qualify?
Yes, that would qualify. Now, outside of the three guys you mentioned, how many similar examples can you name in history? War-for-war, atheists don't stand a chance compared with religionists.
BTW, I AM demonized!
Farkel
"When in doubt, duck!"
Dear Peacepipe,
Thank you! You made my morning! One other item from your post stood out, too:
you wrote: "No one can afford to have any anger in their heart at this point. Love can only start with one to another, in our homes, on our computers and hopefully maybe somehow it will reach to the far ends of the earth and maybe just maybe all will be well. I just don't know"
That is a very wise statement. You are on your journey--it is YOURS, take heart. I agree there is a lot of negativity. People here are just working through their own stuff--try to just dismiss negativity (I KNOW, easier said than done--don't always do it myself).
I agree that there is a growing presence of negativity here on this board. I have started to channel my energies elsewhere. I still have no plans for leaving, this board, there's so many people here I love to read and hear from. But I recognize there are definitely more productive things I can do. I just joined Amnesty International. Anyway, walk your path. It's a wonderful journey.
Love,
Bridgette
