Can I just give my two cents on the heightened enlightenment that we see unfolding in civilization? You are seeing pockets (small but rapidly growing) segments of population growing exponentially in enlightenment (read Gary Zukav's "Seat of the Soul" or visit www.zukav.com). With this change comes much upheaval. I see a huge difference in the way we, as humans have grown, not just intellectually but spiritually. Penn gave the example of the 40's morality compared to today's morality. I would not have wanted to live in the 40's for anything. Look at how much our ideals have grown as a species. Look, at the way blacks, or any minorities were viewed back then. Growing up in the south just in the 70's and 80's, I can tell you that MANY of those I knew of from that generation viewed them as subhuman--a notion that any enlightened being totally rejects. The 40's might have been a great world for the christian white male, but look at the lynchings that took place, (not to pick on the bible, Penn--but I sense you attempting to make the argument that if we'd all just turn to the bible, we'd live in a hunky dory world, so, I have to look at what the bible has truly given us), but much of the prejudice took place with the core belief that the black man was the offspring of a cursed grandson of Noah, and therefore deserved it. And not to mention the way women were viewed.
Anyway, Penn, you wrote one very insightful thing (of many): "something tells me that we are not going to change each others views."
True, but I have to say once again, I appreciate your style. You don't give one the impression of "foaming at the mouth", your arguments are usually fairly well thought out, and you ask intelligent questions, I like that! *sigh* if only all fundies could be like you
Peace,
Bridgette
OK, This is what I have to say
by peacepipe 81 Replies latest jw friends
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Bridgette
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Bridgette
Penn,
Are you sure you were never a witness? You just sound so much like one sometimes: the way you turn your phrases. Were you ever in close association with any?
Peace,
Bridgette -
Unclepenn1
Bridg, once again I must say that whatever is done in the name of the Bible that has anything to do with racism or hate or unjustice is in illogical outworking of that book. I quoted earlier Jesus said "How can you say you love God yet hate your brother, you're a liar". Now just because some fool twists Christs words and says, 'well surely my brother can't be that nigg*r' does not mean that the Bible is the problem. It is man's utter depravity. If we are moving away from being depraved, why such a decline? I don't remember seeing kids on milk cartons when I was younger, and I am only 29 (and holding**smile**). Also, no I was never a Jdub. I just talk with a lot of them. I hope you don't think I reason like them, because they tend to be very deceptive in their discussions (not to make a hasty generalization, but at least the few dozen I have dealt with). Also, enough with the compliments, you are making me blush!
Mohammed- 'My teachings lead to the attainment of truth'
Buddha- 'The truth has been revealed to me'
Jesus- 'I am the truth' -
Julie
Hi Penn--
Don't worry, I have no intention of trying to get into a brawl with you or anything.
:Julie said- Minus the high tech stuff and I see all things that God himself supposedly had "his people" do to others. You are right--not very enlightened and I would expect more from God at least.
:Red Herring!! Red Herring!!!!
I see what you are getting at Penn but I was under the impression that you are of the school of thought that without God there cannot be morality and enlightenment. Perhaps I am mistaken?
:But, come now Julie, let us reason together
Ok, I'm up for reasoning with anyone who is lucid, and you strike me as lucid.
:Well my point was, there is tremendous moral decline in socitey, and gave a few examples. I was wondering how this fits into the 'We are becoming more enlightened' subject, but was not implying that I would be ignoring all of history. I could have given a myriad of examples, I chose one.
I see. I do not think that the school massacres you refer to are as commonplace as they seem. For every kid who has that mindset there are hundreds if not thousands who do not.
:I thought your definition of enlightenment was based on more of a spiritual meaning. Of course we have more information now than we did 100 years ago. Are progressively becoming better? That is where we vary.
Indeed I think we are. There are a lot of people out there who are studying human behavior and why it is what it is. We no longer believe people are "born bad" or that they have "the devil" in them. We realize behaviors are learned and are results of the environment we grow up in. It is slow going, granted, but we are learning. Another thing we have learned that I consider most enlightened is that keeping people in line with fear is not the way to go (especially with children). Fearing God's wrath or a beating from mom or dad is not good "discipline". Learning the consequences of our actions will determine the way things go is much more enlightened than blaming or crediting God with how things are in our lives.
Julie-Though I can see where your "What do you think about the state of the world today....?" approach (which btw, is a commom JW opener too when out schlepping JW mags):I am not a JW nor have I ever been one.
I do know this because I saw another post of yours that said so. I was still struck by the similarity of your opener and that of "dubs on the doors".
:People kiiling in the name of Jesus were not obeying the commands of the Bible. They are what the Bible calls hypocrites. Or to put in in a modern vernacular, pretenders. So basically, all the people you point to in discust over Christianity are pretenders and not even Christian in the first place. Jesus said you would know His followers by their love. Hmm, something about killing someone for not converting to Christianity seems to be a bit unloving.
I agree with you Penn, I have never seen anything attributed to Jesus that condoned slaughtering others. I have seen in the NT where it says all scripture is holy though. There is plenty of scripture that instructs believers to slaughter "infidels". I have often thought Christianity would be much more palatable if it didn't include the OT. I find the OT to be completely irreconcilable to a notion/message of peace and love. It is also the picture of unenlightenment. I read secular books on human behavior that are far more enlightened.
:Anyway Julie, I appreciate the conversation, but something tells me that we are not going to change each others views. Feel free to comment though if you like. Have a nice day :) :)
Well thank you Penn, I hope you have a good day/evening too.
I will always contend that people doing things merely for the benefit of the greater good is much more enlightened than those doing things out of fear (or for reward i.e. heaven)of anyone, even their version of God.
Regards--
JulieP.S. Brigette--you make some good observations. I enjoy your posts.
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Unclepenn1
Julie, I intend to begin a new thread regarding your profile signature. I have been far too busy at work to have any time, other than some quick replies.I am sure you will see it...just a heads up.
Thanks for the chat.
Penn
You too Bridg, and peacepipe, and all y'all!!
Mohammed- 'My teachings lead to the attainment of truth'
Buddha- 'The truth has been revealed to me'
Jesus- 'I am the truth' -
Julie
Hi Penn--
Glad you find the signature interesting. It's a quote by Martin Luther King, fyi.
I'll keep an eye out. :-)
Julie
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Tina
Hi Penn,
Actually,seeing photos of kids on milk cartons does show social enlightenment. It shows a co-ordinated social human effort to assist in the problem of child abductions.
40 yrs ago,it was one of those silent problems,like domestic violence. tactics like that bring it to the publics consciousness.And due to that we now have many org working to alleviate this prob. Unlike previous times,we have advanced and recognized that children have rights. And that we try to protect their rights.
This again,is not a new problem. You can read about children being abducted,sold into slavery etc. in Leviticus. We also have child labor laws.Unlike children in biblical times who were worked as slaves.
Childrens lives in biblical times were pretty horrendous. They were merely property. SO,I say we've come a long way. Just because a problem comes to the fore doesn't make it new. What's new is the awareness.TinaCarl Sagan on balancing openness to new ideas with skeptical scrutiny..."if you are open to the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense-you cannot distinguish useful ideas from worthless ones."
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Julie
Hi Tina,
:SO,I say we've come a long way. Just because a problem comes to the fore doesn't make it new. What's new is the wareness.
Good point Tina. I so disagree that this world is getting progressively worse. Because awareness is raised it might appear so though but that's not the case as you point out.
Cheers--
Julie -
Bridgette
Tina,
I was going to reply much the same way: that what we see with the children on milk cartons is a heightened awareness of something that has been around for the ages--the subjugation of the weaker of the species. But I see it getting better (people at least want to change this). We are screaming collectively to evolve. However, the attitudes of some, (i.e., teenagers who shot up school) are evolutionary throwbacks (not going to debate evolution of humans, I use word here to mean social progression). However, there are much more of us now--when maniacs crop up in the group of over 6 billion of us, and now they have semi auto's instead of bows, arrows, or slings, it makes a HUGE rift in the human family. Also, we live in the age of information--mass media makes these occurances accessible to everyone, so everyone feels it. Which is a good thing, because the majority of us who want change collectively brainstorm and take action to end it.
HOWEVER, at this point, I don't even want to discourage UnclePenn from his work. I chuckle at the thought of two unsuspecting dubs at his door "come on in!" our Uncle Penn says with a welcoming smile. I know he won't do them any harm, they get in out of the sun for a few minutes, and at least, if only for a moment or two, they have to actually THINK, as he questions them. And we all know how dubs hate to think about questions that don't have the nice neat, pat little WT answers. Then, once they start thinking, who knows WHERE they could end up?
hehehehe....
Bridgette -
Tina
Hi Bridgette!
I basically agree with your assessment! I spose Unc will have the dubs thinking,but hopefully factual info,not drummed up misinformation like these problems are new and indicitive of any apocalyptic 'last days'. Hey I'm for anyway you can get a dub to think! As long as it's grounded in truth and factual data. Thanks for your insights! hugs,TCarl Sagan on balancing openness to new ideas with skeptical scrutiny..."if you are open to the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense-you cannot distinguish useful ideas from worthless ones."