Thanks Tina. Yes, it makes sense and it sounds like a very high ideal. I just can't help wondering though. If men were inclined in such a direction by nature, wouldn't they have discovered a long time ago that the religions they create are part of the problem? If people really want to recognize a truth, they usually do, don't you think? And if they don't, what does that say about mans intelligence or desire for truth? If men are ultimately responsible for their own destiny, why is it that they would continue to perpetrate myths unless that is the direction that they want their destiny to go?
OK, This is what I have to say
by peacepipe 81 Replies latest jw friends
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Tina
Hi again seigswife,
I 'm not sure,good questions there. My first thoughts are that religion is used as a tool. It's all about the biggest drugs in the world.Power and control and domination. What better way to get power and support than to claim to be aspokesman for god and perpetrate myths of fear? Because at the end of the day,many still will blindly follow out of fears they never really examine and address. I do think that more and more people are seing thru this. That it has been and still is a tool of manipulation. I do see a new era of enlightenment coming int he future(Bush notwithstanding lol)
It reminds me of Plato's Myth of the cave. There are people who just don't want to see the truth sometimes. It's comforting to abdicate personal responsibilty,to let someone(god )make the decisions and choices in their lives. Then there is always the psychology and cohesion of groups ,how and why they follow blindly.So many reasons why people continue to feel their destiny is out of their hands,that they have no control over thei lives. Things that make me think! Thanks for the great dialogue siegswife,now Ill be raiding my library tonight again! And that's a good thing! hugs,TCarl Sagan on balancing openness to new ideas with skeptical scrutiny..."if you are open to the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense-you cannot distinguish useful ideas from worthless ones."
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peacepipe
Very enlightening- I'm serious! I think it's great to get all these different ideas and views all in one place and you never get interrupted!
UnclePenn, I must comment you seem to be an interesting fellow(is that really you on the picture? you are a guy right? if not sorry LOL)
Anyhow, I'm not sure but you may be a little bit like me. I ask these questions. . .not really any major intellectual brain busters but it's like I have to know what every single other answer could possibly be to my question and sometimes it drives people nuts. ESPECIALLY my HUSBAND who very recently I plaqued him with questions about the NEANDRATHALS (which is now showing on the Discovery Channel) and he is a good catholic boy so of course there are many questions to be asked there and he begs me to stop. It's so funny sometimes. But if it doesn't make sense to me then how can I believe it? AND THEN. . . . .over to TINA. . .on that same thought but leading into one of your thoughts: You mentioned the Plato's Myth of the Cave. That's one of my whole things with religion which I'll not get into now but it's like my hubby: He has his belief(which is fine), it makes him happy (which is fine), our children are all caught up in it(which I'm not sure is fine anymore) but he'll go NO further than that. Forget about asking him any kind of question like: Were the Neandrathals before or after Adam & Eve? He just doens't want to think that far. He has no use to do so. Makes me feel like I'm a lunatic. It drives me crazy. Anyhow, I was wondering if you or anyone saw the movie "the Matrix". It was interesting to me because theres all these people like us living happy in their little world going about their business BUT in REALITY they are cocooned by aliens using their bodies as energy and the people are only DREAMING that reality and there are only a handful of minds who dare to escape and go to the TRUTH which isn't all that pleasant. However, most people would rather be in that dream than know the truth. It was a brain drain movie for me. Makes me have to think to much.
That's all I have to say tonight. Much more to talk about but time for bed.
Night All. :)PeacePipe
Lift me up, I've had enough. . .Tom Petty
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Bridgette
Peacepipe!
you wrote: "people are only DREAMING that reality and there are only a handful of minds who dare to escape and go to the TRUTH which isn't all that pleasant."
*sigh** everytime you post, I'm heartened. The ancients called this illusion maya, the Hindus had another name for it. But this concept is very ancient; that we are actually living in a "dream" or illusion, however, the reality or truth that we are asleep to is VERY pleasant, but our fear is what holds us back from communing with "god" (the reality). I can't wrap my mind around it all, I'll admit. I have ascertained only this in my path (which has no name, no denomination, no "group"), that the highest thing we can do, is to love one another. Humanists do this as a matter of course, adn out of feeling for the species as a whole, and don't want anyone legislating it, which makes it more solid, but christians and some other monotheistic religionists are mandated to love, which makes it more malleable, if said legislation suddenly mandates that we "hate" and kill someone who's different. But when you love, you are speaking "god's" language.
Now, as for Adam and Eve--it's very interesting to note that there was a very benevolent agricultural goddess whose symbol was a serpent in Cannan. The worshipers of El (who later became Elohim, who later became Yaweh, who later became Jehovah) felt very threatened culturally by this, and so it is surmised that they developed the myth of (woman + agriculture [apple] = unleashing of all evil upon earth). Or so I've read. I'm a student on this earth school. Very few things do I know for a certainty, except that we should be nice to each other.
Peace,
Bridgette -
Unclepenn1
Peacepipe, yes I am a man **smiles**
The Matrix! Great movie, something I can totally relate to on a spiritual level. When I was born again 4 years ago, I entered into this truth that Neo had discovered (symbolically in the Matrix). Everyone else I knew was/is still walking around in this world like zombies, not even realizing they are slaves (to sin and darkness) and not wanting to be woken up either. So here I am, trying to share with people that they are in these 'death cocoon's' and they mock and joke but I know it is true and one day it will all be exposed.
Farkel... same story. I lived in PB for years but it was too expensive. Now I am in North Park. Small world!
Mohammed- 'My teachings lead to the attainment of truth'
Buddha- 'The truth has been revealed to me'
Jesus- 'I am the truth' -
Julie
Hi Penn--
:Here is what they deal with today, in our age of further enlightenment....
Rape, murder, gang violence, drugs, guns, bombs, teen pregnancy, alcohol, abortion, blackmail, metal detectors, and just plain rebellion! Are we really progressing towards enlightenment?
Indeed such things are not very enlightened. Minus the high tech stuff and I see all things that God himself supposedly had "his people" do to others. You are right--not very enlightened and I would expect more from God at least.
:Julie said-While war is not a rarity these days it is much less common than it once was.
:Did you know that there have been over 100 wars since 1940?
Oh yes, I am well aware of this. People today aren't quite as bad though as the people of OT times, according to the bible. How many wars can we count that were ordered/condoned by God? Weren't many of those battles to include total genocide? Indeed, not my idea of enlightened. But the bible gives us fabulous justification for trying to annihilate our enemies, doesn't it? Hardly an example for mankind to follow I'd say.
:Julie said -I do think it is ironic that the bloodiest place on Earth (the middle east) is also considered to be "holy" by countless souls.
:How 'ironic' is it that the Bible says that Jerusalem will be a 'cup of trembling' and a 'burdensome stone' for the entire world. Hmm, strange, written thousands of years ago, some obscure piece of property 1/3 the size of San Bernadino County will be a burden for the WHOLE WORLD! When is the last time in the last 10 years you picked up a newspaper and Israel wasn't being talked about.
Well if you want to explain it away in those terms that is your choice. I see it as closed minded people who are superstitious, uncivilized and totally convinced they are on the side of right while everyone else is not (kinda like JWs). Like thousands of years ago people are still killing each other for much the same reason--their version of God. If anyone could use some enlightenment it is surely these Warriors for God/Allah.
:Something to think aboutBoy, I'll say!
Hi Siegswife--
I commend you for asking so many questions, it is obvious you give such issues a great deal of thought. Thinking freely is great, isn't it? Anyway you said:
:If God and Satan don't exist then men are the source of these hateful acts. Regardless of whether they've created dieties to take the rap, the hate comes from them, if there is no other source for it.
Indeed you are right. Mankind is the source for all and those of us who do not believe in the God of the bible realize this and do not blame/credit any other for advances, setbacks. You also asked somewhere about--If the concept of God was created by man, what does that say? (Excellent question btw--here's your answer) When men got together and decided to issue edicts they figured they would carry a lot more weight if the source of this authority was Divine. Therefore "we speak for the Almighty...do as we say or suffer this horrible fate (insert horrible fate here)" . There you have it.
Sure makes a lot more sense than what religion would have us believe.
Take care all--
Julie -
Tina
Penn,
Those aren't new social problems. They've been around forever. They're even in the bible. Murders,gangs(only they were called tribes/clans)violence,weapons of violence(nothing new just updated versions of weapons that can be found in the bible,used for the same purposes. teen pregnancy? In the bible. Abortion? been around before the bible. Ever read about ancient egyption methods of this? It's found in all ancient cultures that pre-date the bible. Truly there is nothing new under the sun regarding societal ills.
You portray them as something specific to 'modern' generations. Most fundys make this erroneous claim.TinaCarl Sagan on balancing openness to new ideas with skeptical scrutiny..."if you are open to the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense-you cannot distinguish useful ideas from worthless ones."
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Unclepenn1
Julie said- Indeed such things are not very enlightened. Minus the high tech stuff and I see all things that God himself supposedly had "his people" do to others. You are right--not very enlightened and I would expect more from God at least.
That is what is called in the world of logical thinking a 'Red Herring'. The topic that I addressed was your statement that we are becoming more enlightened and you changed the subject midsentence and blamed it on mans desire to worship God. Hmm, I was curious, you said that we are becoming more enlightened and I pointed out that in a 50-60 yr period, the problems in one aspect of our society, namely dealing with children, made a 180 degree shift. Back to the original question, if we are reaching this enlightenment, how is it that our major social structures (family, education, relationships) are disinigrating (sp?)?
Penn
Every human being, but especially the adult, prefers to keep on believing what he already believes, and to accept ideas only when they reinforce the ideas he already has. He tends, in other words, to become less and less intellectually curious and to have more and more of a closed mind as he grows older. - Charles Adrian
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Julie
Hi there Penn--
You said:
That is what is called in the world of logical thinking a 'Red Herring'. The topic that I addressed was your statement that we are becoming more enlightened and you changed the subject midsentence and blamed it on mans desire to worship God.Did I Penn? I don't think that referring to behavior from a few thousand years ago is changing the subject of mankind's enlightenment throughout history.
When I think of history I think of a broader spectrum than a few decades ago and when I think of "mankind" I tend to think beyond the borders of the US.
Anyhoo--yes I am convinced we are becoming more enlightened. We know more about medicine, the human mind, space, science, the beginnings of life on Earth and all manner of things than we ever have and this continues to increase. It's been steady and gradual with many a setback but we keep plugging away.
The majority of people now realize that bad weather and drought are not Divine punishment for their wicked king's ways (or whatever), we do not hope and pray for a cure for someone's illness--we know that if someone is to be cured/healed it will be through medicine.
As to the brutality in the world--it's always been with us but we slowly learn. While we have perfected ways to kill each other from afar surely you don't assert that man's urge to kill others has increased throughout history? If this is the case you are in desperate need of some history lessons and I'll be happy to help if you like.
:Hmm, I was curious, you said that we are becoming more enlightened and I pointed out that in a 50-60 yr period, the problems in one aspect of our society, namely dealing with children, made a 180 degree shift. Back to the original question, if we are reaching this enlightenment, how is it that our major social structures (family, education, relationships) are disinigrating (sp?)?
I do not think that our major social structures are disintergrating. More people are becoming more educated than ever before. According to the latest data from the Census Bureau two parent families are on the rise.
Though I can see where your "What do you think about the state of the world today....?" approach (which btw, is a commom JW opener too when out schlepping JW mags) might lead some to think about the negatives going on I do not. The standard of living in much of the world is better than many ever dreamed and with enough people striving for the greater good will increase.
Of course we will always have to deal with those who behave like the people of the OT times or Crusade times, the all-but-those-who-think-like-we-do-must-die attitude will be hard to eradicate but I like to harbor hope anyway.
Regards--
Julie -
Unclepenn1
I said: That is what is called in the world of logical thinking a 'Red Herring'.
Julie said- Did I Penn?
Yes, let's have a look at your earlier statement.
Julie said- Indeed such things are not very enlightened.
OK, so far so good.....
Julie said- Minus the high tech stuff and I see all things that God himself supposedly had "his people" do to others. You are right--not very enlightened and I would expect more from God at least.
Red Herring!! Red Herring!!!!
But, come now Julie, let us reason together
When I think of history I think of a broader spectrum than a few decades ago and when I think of "mankind" I tend to think beyond the borders of the US.
Well my point was, there is tremendous moral decline in socitey, and gave a few examples. I was wondering how this fits into the 'We are becoming more enlightened' subject, but was not implying that I would be ignoring all of history. I could have given a myriad of examples, I chose one.
Julie-Anyhoo--yes I am convinced we are becoming more enlightened. We know more about medicine, the human mind, space, science, the beginnings of life on Earth and all manner of things than we ever have and this continues to increase.
I thought your definition of enlightenment was based on more of a spiritual meaning. Of course we have more information now than we did 100 years ago. Are progressively becoming better? That is where we vary.
Julie-Though I can see where your "What do you think about the state of the world today....?" approach (which btw, is a commom JW opener too when out schlepping JW mags)
I am not a JW nor have I ever been one.
Julie-Of course we will always have to deal with those who behave like the people of the OT times or Crusade times, the all-but-those-who-think-like-we-do-must-die attitude will be hard to eradicate but I like to harbor hope anyway.
Jesus said "How can you say you love God yet hate your brother, you're a liar"
People kiiling in the name of Jesus were not obeying the commands of the Bible. They are what the Bible calls hypocrites. Or to put in in a modern vernacular, pretenders. So basically, all the people you point to in discust over Christianity are pretenders and not even Christian in the first place. Jesus said you would know His followers by their love. Hmm, something about killing someone for not converting to Christianity seems to be a bit unloving.
Anyway Julie, I appreciate the conversation, but something tells me that we are not going to change each others views. Feel free to comment though if you like. Have a nice day :) :)
Mohammed- 'My teachings lead to the attainment of truth'
Buddha- 'The truth has been revealed to me'
Jesus- 'I am the truth'