Hi Penn,
When I said "I gotcha" I meant "I understand where you are coming from". I am not out to "get" anyone. Sorry for that misunderstanding.
:I do believe that was the original contention. Isaish 13 is a vision, recording what Isaiah sees in a yet future battle, and no God does not give His approval of rape. The revelation is of a future battle where God's wrath is poured out on Babylon, which can also be an idiom for the world. Isiah relates in his vision the raping of women and killing of children, but it is not ordained by God.
Am I much mistaken or isn't it God's People who are to carry out God's Wrath on the Babylonians? I am thinking that if God's spokesman is relating a vison of a battle that the Iraelites are to fight, and this vision includes horrible things happening to the enemies of the Israelites, would it not be a logical conclusion it is the Israelites that will DO these horrible things? If this vision is sent by God as a sort of sneak preview, wouldn't his followers think this was expected of them? Help me out here Penn.
:How could it be, when in the Torah God decrees that if a man is caught in the act of rape he is to be put to death.
Again, perhaps I am mistaken but from what I have read in the bible regarding things like indentured servants/slaves etc. special treatment is given to the "brothers" (like in WT-land) but I never see such courtesies ordered for "infidels". I don't think the Israelites and their God actually considered the others human. Much like racism today where some races consider others to be sub-human. Not so far fetched really. More common than I had realized but still terrible.
:I spent many hours answering questions a guy had (Moses is what he called himself) and after laboring to prove a point, he would just go on to something else, dangling the proverbial carrot in front of me as it were. And I was dilligent to give him answers, but the thing was, he never wanted answers, he just wanted to debate, and when he ran out of things to gripe about, he would go back to his first argument. I see that in you a bit, just that fact that you will keep pressing the issue over a few things in scripture, and ignore the overall message, the one that says we have broken God's laws and stand in judgement of Him.
Penn, basically the "answer" you gave me was justification and doubt. You doubt God would actually order such massacres and evil acts. You go on to explain how awful the other people were which would, I am guessing, justify the acts you doubt were ordered. So I get, "no it wasn't God" and then "but it was just". Is that some kind of red herring? I am not missing the overall message but tell me if I got it wrong. To me the message is "Do as we (God and his holy people) say or suffer this horrible fate." It is a simple message, hard to miss. Also hard to reconcile with God, the most enlightened creature of all. I have no intention of dangling carrots or anything else Penn, I really strive to understand how anyone could consider the God of the OT to be loving or enlightened, much less worthy of worship.
:I guess if you can keep a point in your mind that you cannot agree with, it helps to ease your conscience a bit about how you are not living for God.
"living for God"??? You must be joking. I don't have a bad conscience for "not living for God". I live to contribute to the greater good. I do what I can as an individual but most importantly, I am raising my kids with the idea that we are here to contribute to the greater good and that it is our biggest responsibility. I believe this so whole-heartedly that I never know a moment of doubt.
Penn, I do not believe the horrors in the bible are defensible. I have plenty of discussion here on some of those horrors. They are all the same. The woman who drove a tent stake through a guy's temples is "blessed among women in the tent" because her heart was filled with love of God at the time (so it's been explained to me). The annihilations, complete genocides, of others were either a.) never really ordered by God or b.) committed against such wretched people, they had it coming. The same believer here who has assured me there is no scripture condoning the equivalient of a jihaad also lamented the fact that if only the Crusaders had been able to complete their task we wouldn't have the problems we have today.
It is my view that believers are all over the map in their opinions/beliefs but the one common thread most have is that the atrocities in the bible are just though they cannot really explain it. It is then dismissed as a Mysterious part of God's reasoning and who are we to question? If the bible is to be taken as a book of instruction I have to wonder why God would provide a book that can only make the heart of a kind person sick. Why wouldn't God provide us with some enlightenment instead of constant reminders that we need to stay in line with many grotesque examples of your fate provided should you act up?
The bottom line to you is: "we have broken God's laws and stand in judgement of Him." To me it is puzzling that someone who is powerful enough to create the universe would create mankind for the sole purpose of worshipping him and devised horrible punishments for those who do not. Why would he need a planet of devout worshippers? Does God's ego need such stroking? Such a thing is really beyond my comprehension. I would welcome your views on this.
Take care--
Julie
