I was debating with some atheists a few months back on another site and the questions they kept asking for an answer was:
"If the complex universe needs a designer, then why doesn’t the ever more complex, "God" need a designer too? ...and....." Why does this God (this Intelligent Designer) allow pain and tragedy and bad things to happen to his creation today?"
I will just copy and paste the initial answers to that thread on this. The entire debate is found here.
http://p196.ezboard.com/fexjehovahswitnessforumfrm19.showMessage?topicID=613.topic
Hope this helps.
Who made God, and why all the suffering?
So "Who made God", and "why is there so much suffering if he does exist", are the questions put before me too many times to count by atheists and agnostics from this board, and all throughout this board I should add. Unfortunately, three of the threads I planned to answer that question have been locked down now. So, I figure it's best to start my own; a new thread to post my own personal opinions about these questions. For the first question, the basic questioner often believes something like this:
"If the complex universe needs a designer, then why doesn’t the ever more complex, "God" need a designer too? And if God doesn’t need a designer, why then should the universe need a designer?" There are of course a few different twists to these questions but this seems to sum up what I hear the most.
First of all, it is my personal belief that:
1- Everything which has a beginning has a cause. This an understood and accepted principle in human civilizations throughout the earth. If it had a beginning, then somebody or something made it. Fairly simple. The computers each of us are using at this moment had to be made by somebody. Mine was made by Apple, for example. But if there were no name mentioned at all, we still know that somebody had to make it. Design begets a designer.
2- The Universe, including our earth (and all life upon the earth) had a beginning. Most scientists believe in the 'Big Bang" theory. While omitting God altogether, the common belief is that it did have a definite beginning and is still developing and expanding.
3- Therefore, the Universe, that had a beginning, must also have a Cause. That Cause, in my opinion is God.
4-The bible, in my opinion, is a reliable source of information. It claims to be authored by God. There is an abundance of evidence that it could be authored by God. As briefly listed on another thread (now defunct) here is a very short list of reasons why I believe the bible is from God and thus a reliable, trustworthy source of information today:
"For me, the idea that all four of gospel writers just made up these accounts about Jesus Christ is not something I quickly buy into. The way they claim to have changed their lives, leaving many significant occupations and other personal things behind, leads me to believe they sure found something powerfully persuasive in this person called Christ. They also admit their mistakes which only adds to their credibility in my mind. Likewise the bible writer Paul; he certainly had something dramatic happen to him. He claims to have had a vision of Christ himself, became blind, went to Ananias as instructed and received his sight back. Then completely changed his direction from a persecutor of Christians to becoming an ardent member, one of the foremost of the apostles actually, spearheading the preaching of Christ to the Gentiles. The apostles did not even trust or believe him initially, which again, only adds to the believability in my opinion. I guess all of these writers could have just made these things up. That is possible. But it is also possible they happened just as were written. And if so, then we have some very interesting events taking place that would support Jesus' claim to be God's son, representing God himself. And if so, then what he says about God, about the earth, the future, life... can be and should be seriously considered. I would consider such a source as very reliable. Very trustworthy, *IF* these accounts about him are true.
The many prophecies written that had exact fulfillments adds ever more weight to possibility of the bible being more than just some good book. The bible's statement that the earth is round, and that it hangs upon nothing, though men at that time believed the earth was flat, again adds value to the claim that it is from a higher source than men. Are all of these just mere coincidences? It is possible, I guess. But it's also possible that these facts give evidence that the source of these prophecies and scientific accuracies is from a much higher source than humans, who cannot predict the future with any kind of certainty. There are not only a couple of such prophecies, but literally hundreds which exact, detailed fulfillment.
There is secular testimony as well, that Christ did exist and did perform miraculous events. The calendar we use today is based on the very year he was born. Just a coincidence? A person that really did not exist at all, or whose accomplishments were greatly exaggerated? Possible, I guess. But possibly not. The scriptures contain numerous accounts of miracles where people were brought back to life, sick and dying were healed, people were miraculously fed whether from food falling out of the sky or a few fishes feeding thousands, olive oil and bread jars that never ran out and other examples. Sea's were parted, were walked on and calmed down upon commands. You do not hear stories like this today, with hundreds of eye-witnesses to collaborate. This collection of books is available in over 2000 languages today. It the worlds best selling book of all time. The information contained is also very practical for those that wish to believe it and apply it. The Golden Rule for example. Children obeying their parents is another. Husbands loving their wives as their own bodies makes good marriages even better. And answer when mild turns away rage is a proven valuable principle in life. Jesus sermon on the mount in Matthew chapters 5-7 is still considered by many to be the greatest speech ever given. Priceless gems for many.
Is it possible then that this bible is from God? I believe it is possible, and even very probable. If so, if it is from God himself, then the very question as to how life arrived is answered. Because it also tells the reader that God himself made these things that we see today. No soup-like conditions that somehow evolved into the beautiful yet complex systems we see surrounding us today. It answers many of man's perplexing questions. Does it answer everything? No, it does not. Yet it does say there are new scrolls to be opened. It talks about everlasting life being possible for those that believe and apply God's sons teachings in his life. A life where death and pain and mourning are things of the past. Not the kind of life we see today. It promises these things we see causing pain and death and heartaches will be done away completely and permanently. That is a beautiful hope. Many other answers, too many to list here are given as well. If the bible is true then, the human race has much to look forward to.
For me, it does make sense. It does offer hope. It is worth putting my trust in. It does offer answers as well as a good measure of comfort. It is believable."
5- The bible tells us that God had no beginning.
Psalm 90:2 ...Even from time indefinite to time indefinite you are God.
psalm 93:2... You are from time indefinite to time indefinite.
Isaiah 57:15 ....God is ‘the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity’
Revelation 15:3 ...righteous and true are your ways, King of Eternity.Revelation 15:3 ...righteous and true are your ways, King of Eternity.
If the bible is inspired of God (as I have sound reason to believe, by the reasons posted above), and if what it says is true that God had No Beginning, where then is the need for a Cause or designer? This is perhaps the crux of my argument then; NOBODY created God, because according inspired scripture, God had no beginning, hence eliminating the need for a cause altogether. This is the only example, the one sole instance where this principle would apply. All other features of the universe including the earth as well as all life on the earth, the spirit world and anything else anywhere, had a beginning and thus demands a cause. God, the intelligent designer himself, exclusively, is this one sole exception. Furthermore, aside from the bible, Einstein’s theory of general relativity, which has tremendous experimental support, standing the test of time many decades later, states that "time" is linked to matter and space. The way that man keeps track of time, for example is based on the physical universe. Minutes, hours, days, weeks, months and years are all related to the earth's rotation around the sun. Time itself then, it is believed, would have begun along with matter and space with the beginning of the universe. Hence, *If* an Intelligent Designer Created the universe, he would also be the creator of time? Being the creator of time, he would not be limited to the time "dimension" that HE himself created. He is thus outside of time. He would not be limited by time or space (dimensions again both of which he created) and thus once again, not requiring a cause for his very own existence. . Because all of us personally live in the dimension of time, it can be impossible for us to fully understand anything that does not have a beginning or an end. He, simply put, always existed.
No human beings were there in the beginning of the universe to witness what exactly happened. Brilliant minds today can only guess and try to formulate theories. The bible says pointedly: "In the Beginning God Created the heavens and the earth". There is sound and reasonable reasons to believe, as many (including some of the most intellectual minds ever born) in Creation. That all life as we know it today was deigned by the only one who is not subject to time, the only one that never had a beginning. The only one that is not confined by space and bound by physical laws. Laws in which he created and therefore would not be subject to. None of which here is a stretch to either grasp, believe or understand. It makes sense to me. It is believable, logical and reasonable.
Some like to suggest, "well you cannot prove this, so you really cannot say with any certainty that you believe this". And for those that do feel this way, I disagree. I should add, I "respectfully" disagree. I have no problems with others that feel differently than I. But I can believe and do believe in the existence of God, through more than just faith itself. Though faith is an integral part of this equation too. In fact it is needed to a degree. But there is also evidence, logical proof that an Intelligent Designer is responsible for all features of life today. Complex, intelligent, purposeful systems that reflect the intellect of that designer himself. There are numerous court cases that have gone to trial where all of the evidence is circumstantial. Perhaps no body has been found. Still, today's technology now allows trace evidences and other signs to give very convincing testimony that a crime was committed. Juries have been thoroughly and unitedly and fully convinced to convict criminals based on such outside, circumstantial evidence exclusively. Likewise then, there are numerous "evidences" that all life arrived due to the hand of a Master Designer. The complexity and uniformity, the order and structure, the harmony of system after system, feature after feature, from the smallest molecules to the incredible living breathing life forces surrounding us all, to the incredibly complex earth where so many systems are just perfectly balanced all working together to allow life to exist are evidences to me that somebody surely must be responsible. The far more complex, far more powerful and awe inspiring universe with star after star, planet after planet solar system after solar system all beautifully organized, with inconceivable, unimaginable amounts of power and energy, give further testimony, in my mind, that these things did not just "happen" through some unguided series of accidents. Just some fortuitous combination of circumstances. A blind fluke of good fortune. As Einstein astutely stated, "God does not play dice with the universe". So though we cannot see God, we can see evidence that he does indeed exist. Just as we cannot see our own brains or gravity, or oxygen etc... the evidence that these things are nonetheless real is overwhelming. For myself then, evidence that God exists is even more powerful. The evidence supports this belief for me.
After an examination of much evidence, I am 100 percent certain that these things are the result of a Superior Designer. In my mind and in my sincere opinion God does exist. And he is responsible for my being here right now. I owe him the gratitude he so deserves. I thank him for letting me live and exist. Sure I am also here because my mother and father married, had intimate relations and I was born. But that process in itself is so complex, such an outstanding system of design that, for me, the credit rightfully goes to the Creator himself. This is why HE deserves the credit; my parents had me because a masterful designer created this process called reproduction. In fact there was very little on their part, to be truthful. He is worthy of worship in my mind. My questions as to how life arose are answered.
So then, why does God (this Intelligent Designer) allow pain and tragedy and bad things to happen to his creation today? Why do humans suffer so often? Why are there earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, and other natural disasters? What about disease and deformity. Death... why is there death, making life often miserable? Sometimes sudden and if not sudden or unexpected then oftentimes slow and painful? Agonizing to go through but perhaps just as agonizing to watch it. And why do animals kill other animals in ways that appear to be so cruelly at times, grotesquely and harshly? These and other similar questions are legitimate questions that do deserve answers. I have stated I will offer my own opinions to these issues. I have thought about these things often. My own Father died at 38 years of age, when I was 15. It was a traumatic experience, one that I still remember and visit. It started as an aneurism, that when he went to the hospital went undetected until a week later. By then his kidney (was born with only one) as well as his intestines had suffered irreparable damage from lack of blood supply. He went in as a strong, muscular, healthy man, three weeks later he died, after incredible suffering. I was very close to my Dad. Yes these issues deserve answers.
Have I found these answers, which would give this Intelligent Creator some sort of acceptable "pass" so to speak, in my mind. Answers that would allow me to continue to love him, respect and give my worship to him despite these issues being very real and continually affecting people and life all over the world today? In my own case, as far as I am concerned, through my own searching, yes I have. I will share what works for me. This is not to persuade anybody on this board, but to simply state why I personally am satisfied with what I know.
There are several lines of reasoning that work in helping me to reconcile these two issues that A- "A Loving Intelligent Creator" that designed all life around us, with B- the reality of many undesirable things that we also have around us today.
For one thing, the bible, (the same source as mentioned above which does offer sound reasons to believe it is from a higher source than man, in my opinion as well as many others) makes the promise that ALL of these problems will be completely done away with permanently. Death, pain, mourning, crime, war, disease, old age, sickness, hatred, prejudice and many other things will be gone. The sea will no longer be agitated it says as well, it claims. If God is the Creator of the entire universe as well as all life on earth, then he also has the power and ability to put an end to these things causing so much pain and misery. The ability would certainly be there, if he is the Creator, and the scriptures tell the reader that this will become a reality. So for starters, regardless of WHY he allows these conditions to take place, there is a promise that these things will come to a permanent end. This same principle applies with the animal kingdom as well. Regardless of just why the lion (for example) kills with such savagery, the bible says it will eat grass, just like the bull in an everlasting world. In fact all animals will become peaceful, it promises. That alone has a powerful impact for me. Does it really matter WHY God allows these animals, or these problems to exist today, if tomorrow there is assurance it will be completely removed? Especially if the "source" of these promises is one that offers sound reasons to believe them. The bible is that rare source in my honest opinion.
But let's discuss just WHY God may allow these situations to exist for a moment anyway. While it is true that nobody enjoys suffering, pain and the like, it is also true that these conditions can help develop desirable qualities in the individuals that experience them. In fact the bible says that Jesus learned obedience and other desirable qualities through his difficult times and sufferings while on the earth. *If* God is the Creator of all things, and if he allowed his only begotten son to take the beatings and persecution that he did, then obviously some good can be the result by allowing these less than desirable situations to exist today as well. In support of this, James Chapter 1:2-4 tells the reader, "to consider it all joy when you meet with various trials, knowing that this tested quality of your faith works out endurance. But let endurance have its work complete, that YOU may be complete and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything." So once again we can see some value in God's eyes by allowing trialsome conditions and situations to exist. Just because we humans may not fully understand exactly WHY God has allowed certain things to take place, does not mean that he does not exist at all. This may be some kind of opportunity for humans to gain an inner strength, perhaps a greater appreciation for when life is better, free from all these problems plaguing mankind. When I had a very serious staph infection earlier this month, I was scared for a few days. When I knew I made it out of the woods I was really happy to be alive. My appreciation had grown through that experience. The existence of these problems however does not just automatically discount or deny God's own existence. At least not in my mind.
Furthermore, if the bible is true, it does say the first human couple desired independence from their Creator. They said they could decide for themselves what was right, wrong, good and bad, without God. Perhaps God did allow the earth to be inhabited without any intervention for a period of time. Perhaps what the JW's and a few others teach on this issue does have some merit. God may be simply allowing man to govern himself, and we can all see the results of this attempt. We are told he will not allow these conditions to continue indefinitely however. But that explanation does have merit. It may be painful during this time, but in the end the issue will be settled once and for all.
The fact too is that despite these negative conditions around us at times, most people do want to live anyway. Life does have value even today. That's why we usually seek treatment if something goes wrong medically. It's why we snap on our seat-belt, and make our kids do the same. It's why we workout, watch our cholesterol, get enough sleep, take vitamins and many other things because there is still much more GOOD when it comes to life than there is the negative for most people today. It's not ALL bad and rotten and miserable. I enjoyed a wonderful swim in the ocean today. Beautiful turquoise waters on a white sandy beach, all alone. A really nice tropical salad as well for dinner. Playing with my dogs can be a blast. Having pleasant conversation with friends, my wife or son is valuable and often enjoyable. Today one of my best friends from years ago and his family arrived for a visit from Ca. How nice to be able to catch up on how he's doing, to show him some of my personal swimming holes, play some sports, eat a nice fat steak or whatever else we feel like doing. Life is not all bad, as some might have people believing. And again, if God does exist, he certainly can take away these other things that bring us down. And there is a promise that he will do just that. If the bible holds no value for you whatsoever, then there is still the possibility that this life will only take us into a better life, something perhaps even blissful.
The bible also talks about a wicked, powerful unseen spirit force that God allows to influence the earth, In fact, it says that he was hurled down to the earth by God's own son. Again, why would God want this wicked influence on the earth? Possibly because it allows us to be tested, to develop endurance, and for some perhaps to even find God. Once again the very encouraging answer to that wicked influence of a devil, to all of the other ailments affecting mankind including death, the brutal animal kingdom and too many other things to list here is that God says he will bring all of these problems to an end once and for all. For me, such a promise coming from the one that created all things, is something I can see as becoming a reality. It is not some fairy-tale hope, in my mind. It is believable and logical. And it sure sounds better and more plausible than the alternative some believe; that all life just happened on its own, with no governing force whatsoever for all of the complexities of what we see around us. There is no hope of a better future. No chance of anything wonderful. A dog eat dog world where even the dogs that win have no future whatsoever. Survival of the fittest with the fittest have nothing to look forward to but permanent death. A bleak, dark no hope kind of existence. Not too much to get excited about with a life and hope like this.
So in conclusion, I believe God had no need for a designer because he had no beginning. Time is his own creation, so he is not subject to it. There are also many possible reasons why he allows the problems to exist today. Helps us develop greater appreciation for life and health and even for God. Develops endurance, faith and other positive qualities. He is allowing man to govern himself for all to see the results firsthand. Humans are moved to think spiritually, to look for an answer to these issues when faced with these issues. Prepares us for something better. But regardless of exactly why he does allow these problems to exist, there is sound reason to believe his promises that soon ALL of these plagues will be removed once and for all by God himself. Those words are repeated over and over again in the bible. So even if I did not know why he allows the miserable parts of life to exist, I can be comforted that it will soon be gone. That is something I believe in and believe in with great confidence. It is a worthy hope in my mind. And it sure beats anything else I've heard up to this point, on this board, or in my life!
Whether you agree or disagree with what's been posted here, at least you all know I have posted my reply to those questions you've asked. In my own words from my own ideas based on my own examinations. The effort was there. The reason this process and this post took so long is because one should think carefully and reasonably first. It's not soemthing you just throw up there. It takes forethought and reflection. My going through this process only helped me to see what I believe more clearly. That this hope I have is one based on more than just faith. Sorry if it took longer than others would have liked, but that was the best I could do. Thanks for taking the time to at least read it. Respectful opinions are always welcomed. All the best -Vinny
