Will YOU be the next dead American?

by Nathan Natas 69 Replies latest jw friends

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    Instead of Nazi analogies, what is beginning to dawn on me is that we are on the threshold of another Communist witch hunt. Cold war hysteria in the early 50s led to gross injustices against ordinary Americans simply of their political beliefs (even if those beliefs had long since been abandoned). Eventually, even a well-placed rumor (though false) could ruin a person's reputation and career.

    I hope we don't see a similar descent into prejudice and fear:

    "Are you now, or have you ever been, a believer in Islam?"

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    Seeker -

    ...what is beginning to dawn on me is that we are on the threshold of another Communist witch hunt. Cold war hysteria in the early 50s led to gross injustices against ordinary Americans simply of their political beliefs (even if those beliefs had long since been abandoned). Eventually, even a well-placed rumor (though false) could ruin a person's reputation and career.

    So this is simply hysteria?

    and dead civilian husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, sons and daughters are simply the expression of political beliefs?

    I think you are overlooking some very important details:

    0. The "cold war" was primarily ideolgical - a battle of IDEAS.

    1. More than 6,000 American civilians have been subjected to the ACT of murder.

    2. This is not a COLD WAR. Parts of the rubble of the World Trade Center are still far beyond RED HOT (approx. 600 degrees Fahrenheit). America has pretended this was a cold war for more than a decade, and the body count has only escalated. Now, because punishment for earlier acts of terrorism was not swift and sure, the enemy has brought their terrorism to our shores.

    3. We are not talking about a Jdub "Judicial Committee" circus run by untrained volunteers with a mean streak. It is pretty easy to determine if a person is a citizen of another country. If they are a citizen of an Islamic nation, SEND THEM HOME.

    If they are a citizen of this country, having been naturalized or born here, they would not have to leave.

    If a citizen of this country is guilty of aiding or abetting a terrorist act, they should be charged with treason and if they are found guilty they should be subject to public hanging.

  • julien
    julien
    Uh, no, blame the idiot Americans who view the world as black-and-white. It's not only Arabs the idiots have been targeting, but also Sikhs -- who are not even Muslim, but they sure do wear them towels around their heads, huh? That's good enough for me! Get the tar and feather! (Idiots...)

    Not just Americans:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk_politics/newsid_1570000/1570106.stm

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    What an odd reaction.

    So this is simply hysteria?

    No, the way some people are reacting to the real events is hysteria. What the 50s had was hysteria. There is a difference.

    and dead civilian husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, sons and daughters are simply the expression of political beliefs?

    You are drawing too tightly an analogy. I was talking about the way people react to the threat of death. In the 50s, they reacted by hunting down Commies. I worry that today they may react by hunting down A-rabs. Never underestimate the ignorance of the American public.

    I think you are overlooking some very important details:

    0. The "cold war" was primarily ideolgical - a battle of IDEAS.

    Backed up by nuclear warheads. Besides, any war or conflict or crime is a battle of ideas. Sometimes those ideas lead to death, and thus the hysteria.

    1. More than 6,000 American civilians have been subjected to the ACT of murder.

    Did I say otherwise? I wasn't talking about the way those murderers are dealt with. I was talking about how this could lead to another period of prejudice against innocents.

    2. This is not a COLD WAR. Parts of the rubble of the World Trade Center are still far beyond RED HOT (approx. 600 degrees Fahrenheit). America has pretended this was a cold war for more than a decade, and the body count has only escalated. Now, because punishment for earlier acts of terrorism was not swift and sure, the enemy has brought their terrorism to our shores.

    You don't stop terrorism by retaliating. That is proven in Israel and Ireland. When you hit back, they hit you again, ad infinitum. You cannot stop terrorism, you can only hope to lessen its effects. If it could be stopped, Israel, with its extreme laws on security and policy of hitting back hard against any act of terrorism, would have stopped it. They failed. You can't stop terrorism.

    3. We are not talking about a Jdub "Judicial Committee" circus run by untrained volunteers with a mean streak. It is pretty easy to determine if a person is a citizen of another country. If they are a citizen of an Islamic nation, SEND THEM HOME.

    Yes, the U.S. Congress did a bang-up job of being fair in the 50s when dealing with Commies. I'm sure noooothing will go wrong this time....

    If they are a citizen of this country, having been naturalized or born here, they would not have to leave.

    If a citizen of this country is guilty of aiding or abetting a terrorist act, they should be charged with treason and if they are found guilty they should be subject to public hanging.

    I have no problem with kicking out illegal aliens. There are existing laws that cover this. Why don't they start enforcing them, instead of making new laws? Oh I know why -- conservatives want 'small government.' Then when this happens they scream 'why didn't the government do its job!' Well, do you want small government or not? Either let the government enforce the existing laws with enough funding to do the job, or shut up about it.

  • Bridgette
    Bridgette

    Seeker,
    You always make sound, reasonable arguments. I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I don't want Mccarthyism, or a witch hunt (see my earlier posts). But I keep going back to: then what? What do we do? I'm all for getting to know our neighbors, as LD suggests to promote understanding, peace, love and just knowing what the hell is going on with them. Are they beating their kids/wives/planning to fly 2 planes into the WTC? I like Mark's (crossroads) idea of getting to know who and what the f** our gov't is getting us into bed with! I don't want my tax dollars going to the TALIBAN--but they have. And I'm pissed about that. But these things can be addressed. I want to know what to do for my IMMEDIATE safety. If Timothy McVeigh, and William Pierce and their neo-nazi cohorts had a country to deport them to, I WOULD!!! They are dangerous, they hate their fellow humans who do not think like them, and they want to kill people and overthrow the gov't. Now, they don't have a country to deport them to. Sadly, they are our own. So, we prosecute and execute and watch like hell--even those who support them and their ideals. Ultimately, education is what will help for the long term, but when people want to kill you, you go into fight or flight mode, until you can find a little respite to collect your thoughts for the long term solution.
    If we cannot stop terrorism, as you assert--then what? I keep going back to THEN WHAT? And Israel, while it hasn't been able to stop terrorism, has kept itself from being eradicated off the planet. Now, I'm no proponent of Israel on the national scale (only individual). The only reason they have not been obliterated, is they strike back, and strike back HARD. Until you come to them civilly, they do not respond to violence in anything but the harshest, kick ass manner. If they did not, they would die. Simply and utterly. The minute the Jewish diaspora set foot on that piece of crap dirt over there, they were attacked by all the nations surrounding them en masse. They kicked their asses. There has been little time to talk peace, since people are bent only on violence.
    Pax,
    Bridgette

  • teejay
    teejay

    Nathan,

    SURELY you are not suggesting that Niemoller's quote about the NAZIs rounding people up into prisons and CONCENTRATION CAMPS...

    I understand the relevance of your question. Jews were citizens of Germany; the Arabs Ann Coulter proposes be deported are visitors. I understand the difference. Still, if we aren't careful, we aren't far from viewing everyone of that heritage suspiciously. People, Americans, have already been killed, their businesses targeted.

    On Sixty Minutes last Sunday, it was shown that most of the Muslim world did not grieve over the tragedy. They seemed to express a bit of relief (joy?) that Americans have now experienced a facet of life that has been a part of their lives for years.

    Now, what if Arab-Americans express similar sentiments as their countrymen back home? It wouldn't be a smart thing, I know, but what if? Should they be deported, too, for expressing a political view?

    peace,
    tj
    _____________________________________

    Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
    -- Mark Twain
  • Seeker
    Seeker

    Bridgette,

    I am still formulating my ideas as to what should be done (as if my ideas mattered one iota to the people making the actual decisions). But mostly it comes down to enforcing existing laws. If people are not supposed to be in this country, as the hijackers eventually became from staying here too long, then the authorities should track them down and enforce the existing laws. They used fake IDs. There are laws against that too -- enforce them.

    What else? We are used to being searched in an airport. That is an unconstitutional unreasonable search since it assumes we are all guilty until proven otherwise even though they have no reason to suspect us individually. Yet I find I can't quite bring myself to demand my rights in this case. I think our modern society, which demands the full access to weapons, need to check those weapons on occasion. And since I can still choose not to fly if I want to stand on my principles, it is not something I object to. In fact, search me more if it will help. I have less objection to loss of privacy when I am in public than I do when I am in my own home.

    I also think those who committed this crime should be brought to justice. COMF asked if this was a new principle for me, since I have objected to the death penalty for McVeigh. No, this is not new. McVeigh was no longer a threat, and therefore his death served only to make him a martyr. In the case of the people responsible for this crime, they are still a threat, and evidently will remain so until put to death. That's why in this case I want to see them killed. All the folks who are throwing strawman arguments at me in the assumption that I don't want the criminals killed can now see that we are on the same side here.

    Will this prevent terrorism? Of course not. But it might help reduce it if they see that there will be punishment every time they try it. As you said, Israel at least gets to survive, even if they get cafes blown up now and then. It's the same thing in London. If you live there, you live with the possibility of a bomb going off at any time. Does life go on? Sure. What else can you do, other than doing your best to prevent it, knowing you will never be 100% successful.

    Remember, this was not the first time terrorists blew up the WTC. It happened in 1993 first, when a car bomb went off in the garage, killing people. They hoped it would undermine the foundation and cause the towers to collapse. They failed, as it happened. So what happened this time wasn't even new, other than the number of people killed. People are running around saying, "America isn't safe now!" Well, it wasn't safe a month ago either. We've seen since 1993 that terrorism is here to stay, and yet we've managed to live the last 8 years in relative quiet and peace. I think that's the way it will be in the future, something that Europe long ago adjusted to: terrorism will happen, but you live your life in the meantime. We're late to the party, but since 1993 we've been there. It's a shame that many Americans didn't catch on until so many died here.

    If the Immigration Service had been doing its job (that is, if they had enough funding to do its job well) since 1993, they might have caught some or all of thsese hijackers ahead of time. We don't need to ban encryption (they didn't use any), we don't need more wiretap laws (the NSA already captured their phone calls), we don't need to pass new laws (just enforce the existing laws for a change). And we need a new mindset: We are like the rest of the world at last -- a target for random violence at any time. Let's react to this threat, but not overreact in a way that will make things worse.

  • julien
    julien
    McVeigh was no longer a threat, and therefore his death served only to make him a martyr.

    Don't forget that there were living victims who lost spouses or children who wanted to see him pay for his crime by dying. Would you deny them justice?

  • Seeker
    Seeker
    Don't forget that there were living victims who lost spouses or children who wanted to see him pay for his crime by dying. Would you deny them justice?

    I really don't want to change the topic in this thread, especially when my thoughts on McVeigh can be found back in that monster thread on the topic, but I'll simply say this: I don't view that as justice, just revenge. Revenge is an understandable emotion, so I don't mind them having it. But what is just about taking another life when one life has already been taken? Besides, he would have suffered much more with life in prison. He got the easy way out.

    Again, this is off-topic, and explosive. You asked my opinion, I gave it. For more information, people can refer to that monster thread.

  • Bridgette
    Bridgette

    Seeker, you expressed: "as if my ideas mattered one iota to the people making the actual decisions"
    It DOES! We have only to remember that our vote and voice DOES count! Start writing letters to your congressman, corporations that you disagree with, etc, you'll see. We've just forgotten or gotten lulled into an apathy, wherein we don't remember that we live in a democracy (I know-for all you Libertarians, it's a republic, but...we still have power). We live in a country that at least pays lip service to listening to its populace, and usually they do--really, just too many of us sit back and feel helpless. Like we did in the borg, feeling like we didn't count--when in actuality, religion AND government are totally dependant upon it's populace. Religion a little moreso, because they can't kill people. But go look up experiences in Amnesty International--you'll see even the harshest regimes respond to simple everyday letter writing. Our opinions do count. So, I kind of got off the subject, but...you get my drift.
    So, so far, I have
    1) Get to know my neighbors--I like that
    2) Find out who my gov't is sponsoring and giving aid to--on board with that one already, I encourage all taxpayers to do likewise.
    3) Enforce existing laws to the FULLEST extent--yep, sounds good. I intend to write Mr. Nighthorse Campbell Monday to see what is being done.
    4) Acquiescing to thorough searches at airport--sigh, how can we not?
    So far so good. I'd still like to brainstorm more. I don't want to just sit around and be critical of radical legislation that pops up, I want to be part of the solution.
    I think there will be war. There already is. I think innocent people are going to die. They already have. I am sad. About all of them. I think one day we will transcend all of this. But I think for now, it's fight or flight. And there ain't no place to "fly" so it's fight. When the dust settles, we will rebuild. Americans are not a bad lot. If you can get past all the rednecks We helped rebuild Japan. We will help rebuild in the middle east. We will take our ideals over there, which will cause far more damage to their insane fundamentalist, archaic attitudes (esp towards women!) than our bombs will have done. We, as the human race are on the cusp of a giant leap in evolution (social) and there is always tremendous upheaval when that happens: the old dinosaurs--afraid of change and enlightenment and loss of what they perceive as power, and the NEW, fresh, craving free thought and change. Just think of when Neanderthal met up on hunting grounds with Cromagdon. Must have been a sight to behold.

    Bridgette
    "do what ye will, so long as it harm none."

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