Great topic fmw.
You might wish to google for "zimzum" and "kenosis" for interesting echoes to your intuitions.
Did God ever Exist?
by found-my-way 61 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Terry
Well, really!
How could a real God manage to HIDE himself and why would he bother??
The Old Testament God is full of piss and vinegar and constantly meddling in human affairs with barely a moment of tolerating much at all.
The Bible shows a shrinking God who goes sullen and vanishes.
It is like watching a new football coach come in to a team breathing fire and kicking butt only to fade into a nobody who loses his contract and gets fired after too many losing seasons.
Satan is a late commer also. Satan was a counter-balance the Jews started to realize was necessary to explain all the bad. It was only after the Babylonians swallowed up the movers and shakers (and thinkers and writers) that theJewish religion found that necessity was the mother of invention. Good cop/bad cop: God/Satan.
As Alexander conquered the world and Greek logic and form saturated even the most backward parts of the known world the Jewish God could no longer be justified with mere assertion.
Eventually, the mono-god of the Jews came face to face with the Greek/Roman idea of a demi-God pantheon and suddenly morphed into the 3 in 1 oil that is peddled in churches.
Jehovah vanished from sight and Super Jesus took his place.
Even the character and personality of Jesus has undergone a slow and steady evolution as necessity molded how he was presented to ever-changing societies through history.
Compare 21st Century Jesus to 4th Century Jesus and there is really no resemblance at all.
So too with God.
Only the storybook God ever existed. That was on an ad hoc basis. He scribbled graffiti on the bathroom walls of mankind's conscience and then went into rehab. I understand he died in a 19th century German sanitarium, poor and toothless. Fred Nietsche ghosted his memoirs.
His son carries on the family business with several tv ministries and a winter home in Florida.
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Abaddon
Perry, do you still believe in the doctrine of the elect? (i.e. we are predestined to burn or go to heaven and there is nothing that we can do about it).
If you believe you are one of the elect it would explain something about the way you look down your nose at the rest of the world. You have made yourself your own god, pronounced yourself saved, and now can sit in complacency sneering at everyone else whilst you worship your own highly-elevated opinion of yourself.
If you have stopped believing in the doctrine of the elect, then you're obviously a butterfly mind flitting from one bunch of supersticion to the next, taking what you like and using it to make yourself feel less inadequate, and your latest set of beliefs are as of little interest as your last as they have the same order of reliability.
Be a good chap and clear up exactly what sort of person we are dealing with...
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Perry
Where did you get the idea that you are a child of God? You cannot stop sinning can you? Yet, you imagine that God has some sort of responsibility toward you don't you..... even as you are his enemy? Most people do this to comfort themselves in this fallen world. But, there is just one problem.... it isn't true. If, of course you could stop attacking God through your lying, lusts, greed and selfishness, then God, as any parent would care for you, beyond your wildest dreams.
Hi Perry,
Just wondering why you are attacking me?
Where did I attack you? Specifically? Please show me where I wrote something false so that I can quickly apologize to you.
I did not call myself a child of God. I do not see myself as such.
You are correct. You imagined yourself as God here:
If I were God, I wouldn't of let it happen in the first place, these are my children , why would I let them suffer?
Apparently, I made the mistake of actualy answering the question. Would it make you feel better if folks simply stopped answering your questions? Wouldn't that be kinda lonely? Isn't that the purpose of boards like this, to ask and answer questions? What is your view of how this board should work?
Can you stop sinning Perry? Or have you become the only perfect human since Jesus?
You cannot imagine my delight that you asked this question. Yes, and no there are many like me. Isn't that good news?
I do not believe that God has any responsibility towards me personally.
I couldn't help but notice that you offered "no contest" to the "lying, lusts, greed and selfishness" charges that I levied against you in my opening paragraph. It is not an attack to simply shine light upon something. Do you like being that kind of person FMW? What if God was prepared to give you a GIFT out of the kindness of his heart that would give YOU the victory over your lusts, lying, and thievery? Would you accept it? Or, has your sin advanced past simple denial into full blown enjoyment of your crimes.... even as you judge and would like to punish others for the same?
So you are saying that God only loves those who do not sin? Nice conditional love there....just the kinda god I wanna believe in
Not at all. God makes the rain fall upon all. The sun comes up for all. He answers many prayers of those who are not his children. It's called common grace. Their sin makes them his enemy though. I love my neighbor, but I love my son in a different way, a special way. God offer sonship to all. Unfortunately, many unwisely do not accept and would even rather face eternal punishment for their crimes.
So, why then do you judge God by a different standard than you judge your neighbor? Would you like the courts to make you eternally responsible for your various neighbors' kids or just your own? Just treat God the way you want to be treated and you'll get a lot more mileage out of your thinking.... and his blessing.
Where did I judge God anywhere in my post?
Here:
If I were God, I wouldn't of let it happen in the first place, these are my children , why would I let them suffer?
Clearly, you judge God as inferior to your own reasoning. Additionally, you assume all people are God's children.
I think you have sorely mistaken the idea I was presenting. I think you have completely misunderstood me.
Really? How so?
I'm glad that you feel as though you are a perfect son of God.
Thank you... if feels awesome. Would you like to know how you could be God's son and avoid unnecessary punishment for your crimes?
If good and bad changes as social conditions change, then it is just a matter of time before what you say is good today will be what is bad tomorrow. When judging, how can you be sure your "present truth" won't be falsified tomorrow? If so, then are you qualified to judge anything? Are you qualified even to speak intelligently? Or, are you qualified to only speak unintelligently, thus imitating the atheist god
I dont judge.
Have you ever had something dear to you stolen? What did you wish upon the jerk that stole it? You do judge and you are a liar.
I hate judgementalness
See above where you judged God. If today were Judgement Day, what would be your fate if God judged you by your own standards?
, I detest judgemental people, and would never want to be one.
See above where you judged God. If today were Judgement Day, what would be your fate if God judged you by your own standards? Shouldn't he "hate" and be "disgusted" with you since you say this is appropriate for people who judge, even as you judge God?
As far as I'm concerned I only see a Pharisee's words. Jesus taught...to not judge others, for how you judge them is how you will be judged.
Yes, Jesus came not to judge but to SAVE.From what? He is clear about from what:
FEAR THIS:
But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.
Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire, where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.
Isn't it wonderful that Jesus came to offer a vast period mercy instead of giving us what we actually deserve? Just because Jesus let people know that their sins would be punished doesn't mean that he judged him.
I am not judging anyone. I merely presented a theory.
Yes, it is wonderful that we live in a period of grace and not judgement. But, Judgement Day is coming.
Did Jesus judge the sinners, the common people? He loved them, he ate with them, he fed them. I, will never claim to be anything other than a mortal, mistake-making sinner. and if God is up there, and He see's fit to strike me down dead, then He can do so. I can't stop him.
Where did you get the idea that your punishment was enivetable? All you have to do is accept the FULL PARDON that God offers you. Not only will he not punish you, he'll put a ring on your finger, a fine garment on your back.... even a crown on your head as his son and prince!
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funkyderek
Perry:
Where did you get the idea that you are a child of God? You cannot stop sinning can you? Yet, you imagine that God has some sort of responsibility toward you don't you..... even as you are his enemy? Most people do this to comfort themselves in this fallen world. But, there is just one problem.... it isn't true. If, of course you could stop attacking God through your lying, lusts, greed and selfishness, then God, as any parent would care for you, beyond your wildest dreams.
What an obnoxious and simple-minded attitude (even by the standards of biblical apologetics). You think the reason God created childhood leukemia is because some children are lusty, greedy selfish liars? How would they have to behave in order for God to spare them an agonising early death?
For instance, if a child down the street from me gets abused in some way, who will the police arrest? The child's parents of course, not me. So, why then do you judge God by a different standard than you judge your neighbor? Would you like the courts to make you eternally responsible for your various neighbors' kids or just your own? Just treat God the way you want to be treated and you'll get a lot more mileage out of your thinking.... and his blessing.
So God is just a neighbour then, with no direct responsibility towards us? If he, as the creator of the world, causes (or allows) an earthquake which results in a tsunami that kills 200,000 people - even if he doesn't see them as his children - doesn't that at least constitute willful negligence; wouldn't the police be banging down his door? Or were all those people "attacking God" as well?
On the other hand, if you choose to simply beleive in the non existence of God, you are faced with other problems. All experience is cause and effect. So, without God you must believe in an infinite digression of cause and effect events. Since this is beyond the labroratory, it enters the realm of faith.
I don't see how that becomes any easier when you postulate a god. You're still left with a choice of a beginning to everything, or something having existed eternally. Except now, you've also got an infinitely complex entity to explain away.
How do you explain the future? If time has an infinite past, wouldn't we be stuck in the present? (one moment past for one moment present). How does the future get here without a beginning?
That doesn't make any sense at all.
Why would some people choose an unintelligent "First Cause" as opposed to an intelligent one?
For parsimony. As I wrote above, the only forms of intelligence we know of have come about as the product of a long process of evolution. Adding one right at the beginning of the universe where nothing is needed but a singularity just unnecessarily multiplies entities.
Atheists are forced to beleive in an untelligent God of infinite digression of cause and effect events, or an unintelligent first cause.
And theists are forced to believe that God can violate their otherwise inviolable principle of cause and effect, that he is the one exception to the rule that requires his existence.
Sadly, the unintelligent facet of their belief system is the dominant feature of many of its adherents' posts.
A cheap shot, poorly aimed. No doubt the result of you attempting to find a cogent argument and failing miserably.
For instance, I once started a thread directed toward whether atheism was dangerous or not. All the atheists seem to agree thay they get their notions of good and bad from something called "social conditioning".
Really? You've polled "all the atheists" on that, have you?
Fascinated by this source that apparently directs atheists, I asked several questions:
1. How do you know if the social conditions are true?
2. Are there any examples in history of people being mislead by social conditions?
3. Can social conditions be manipulated?
4. Where do the social engineers and corporate advertisers go to get their notions of right and wrong?
5. Who is in control of that source?
Truly bizarre questions. However, there is a point in there somewhere, even if you haven't grasped it. Most people think that society has improved over the centuries. Slavery is almost universally condemned. Women and children are no longer considered property. People are free to express views that differ from the majority. People of all races have the same rights and protections under the law. But if these are just the product of social conditioning, then perhaps they have no more constancy or show no more progress than the fashionable length of skirts. Perhaps in a few decades, slavery will become fashionable again. That is something akin to the argument you should have made, but as your expression of the argument was so poor I can't tell if that's what you meant. Nevertheless, I'll assume it is because it's actually an argument worth considering.
Change in "social conditioning" or the ethical zeitgeist of an era seems to me less like the whims of sartorial fashion and more like progress in the sciences. Just as, in the past, people believed all sorts of completely untrue things about the physical sciences (e.g nothing can travel faster than sound) people also believed all sorts of ludicrous things about acceptable ways to behave (e.g. women should not have the right to vote). The mere fact that the greatest minds in their field - be it science or ethics - once believed something we now find laughable is no reason to reject the field out of hand. Even the near certainty that there are many things we have wrong now does not justify completely abandoning the whole endeavour. Our science is better than the science of the eighteenth century, and our ethics are better than the ethics of that time, even if neither has, or indeed ever will, reach its pinnacle.
If good and bad changes as social conditions change, then it is just a matter of time before what you say is good today will be what is bad tomorrow. When judging, how can you be sure your "present truth" won't be falsified tomorrow? If so, then are you qualified to judge anything? Are you qualified even to speak intelligently? Or, are you qualified to only speak unintelligently, thus imitating the atheist god.
Again, you've got a silly idea, and expressed it poorly. From where do you get your ideas of right and wrong, Perry? The Bible? I sincerely hope not, and I doubt that you do. Is killing wrong because it violates another person's freedoms, or is it wrong because God wrote it on a stone 3,000 years ago? If our ideas of right and wrong come only from God, then who can blame Muslim terrorists for murdering infidels? They might feel squeamish about it, but that inner feeling can't be a reliable indicator of right and wrong, can it? So they must go to their god, who tells them to slaughter the infidel and their reward will be great.
But of course, the Muslim holy book isn't really the word of God, right Perry? The real word of God is the Bible, right? You know because it says so. Obviously evidence isn't a criterion you can use; faith trumps evidence. So there's no logical way you can argue against someone who puts their faith in a different holy book (not that logic can matter either), you can only hope that you're not on the same train, plane or bus as them when they do what their god thinks is good.
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nvrgnbk
Perry, please tell your God that people like yourself are are a very large part of the reason I no longer believe in Him!
Here's a little prayer that I still pray from time to time( no direspect intended to the many kind and sincere Christians on this board: Mouthy, ABR, and many other beautiful individuals):
Jesus, please protect me from Your followers!
Nvr
P.S.- If Jehovah and Jesus are real, I'm thinking they can't like you very much.
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found-my-way
Perry?
You dont even know me
Who pissed on your cornflakes this morning?
You go on and on about my sins, of which you know nothing about...you dont even know what gender I am....I could be a VIRGINAL SWEET OLD LADY for all you know.
as for your comments that attack me personally....wow, I'm speechless...I have never ever been told I was going to burn in hell for crimes I have not even commited...
I couldn't help but notice that you offered "no contest" to the "lying, lusts, greed and selfishness" charges that I levied against you in my opening paragraph. It is not an attack to simply shine light upon something. Do you like being that kind of person FMW? What if God was prepared to give you a GIFT out of the kindness of his heart that would give YOU the victory over your lusts, lying, and thievery? Would you accept it? Or, has your sin advanced past simple denial into full blown enjoyment of your crimes.... even as you judge and would like to punish others for the same?
I offered NO COMMENT because I didnt deem your accusations WORTHY of ONE. I wont even go into what kind of person I am, because that will only further incite more of your uncalledfor attacks. I am not a liar, nor a greedy person, nor am I selfish, I may lust from time to time the person that is my mate, but, I think that's ok....
explain to me this gift? I do NOT JUDGE OTHERS, and I do not want to punish anyoneYOU ARE DESCRIBING YOURSELF, NOT ME.
you're the one who wants me to burn in hell, you're the one who wants to punish me for the crimes that you think I have commited...and you dont even know a single thing about me as a person.
what does that say about you as a person, Perry?
Tell me, as you are so perfect, does anyone love you? can anyone stand to be even in your presence? or is your bird your only companion in this world, and do you find some measure of comfort in the feathery bossom of its bird breast?
I cannot fathom how someone can just spit out venom and fire completely unprovoked and unattacked.
Go on your way, Perry, You now have Proved to everyone here that you are indeed a wonderful specimen of the human race...how the masses aren't falling at your feet and worshipping your perfect personality is truly a mystery....
I am just a lowly ....
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sir82
You go on and on about my sins, of which you know nothing about...you dont even know what gender I am....I could be a VIRGINAL SWEET OLD LADY for all you know.
–He did the same to me in another thread.
A ringing endorsement for his religion! It teaches people to be insulting, rude, and ignorant.
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Narkissos
Lol, don't worry too much about Perry, I got upset a few weeks ago before I realised that he's just been reading the first couple of lessons of Calvin for Dummies and figures he can go hurling charges of immorality at perfect strangers and then use the "misunderstanding" as an opportunity to sell his own brand of "Jesus-washes-whiter"...
I suspect it's easier for him to do so online than at his local pub though...
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nvrgnbk
I suspect it's easier for him to do so online than at his local pub though...
LMAO! @ Nark. You are in rare form my studious friend!
Nvr