covenant, Ark of...

by Priest73 44 Replies latest jw friends

  • Creeper
    Creeper

    Please do not imply that I am insinuating anything. You will get no response from me with that attitude sir. I find your commentary a bit rude and offensive. My intent was to help, but since it is being seen as repugnant, then I will simply say that I forgive your insinuation, it was definitely not my intent to infer you are being linguistically short.

    The answer is that the ark was to house the two stone tablets with the testimony of YHWH written by his finger himself within the second room of the temple veil. This information is clear in Deuteronomy 5.

    I don't find this conversation to be developing loving, caring fruit of the spirit, so if you forgive me, I will now depart from this thread.

    With great love for you and yours, (all of you),

    Creeper

  • Priest73
    Priest73

    Where's Creeper's sense of humor? He never answered my blood type joke?

  • IP_SEC
    IP_SEC
    The answer is that the ark was to house the two stone tablets with the testimony of YHWH written by his finger himself within the second room of the temple veil.

    You really think this was the only purpose of the ark?

    PS: im not rude, just straight up dude.

  • Creeper
    Creeper

    I think the problem that we will run into is that I am a Messianic Jew who believes in the Tanakh, and portions of the Greek texts, with the exception of Paul's letters to various heathens who worshiped Mithra (Jesus Christ) and not the true Elohim YHWH through Yahshua the Messiah.

    I think once a person realizes that a great deal of the New Testament is altered to meet the pagan Mithraism that was inherently present during the 1st century in Rome and it's provinces, one will see many of it's influence. There is currently a question about this on another thread:

    http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/onlytruegod

    I find the information from many in the Jewish circles today quite accentuated. It takes great courage to drop the world and it's customs completely, and adopt a Jewish life following Tanakh.

    Shalom,

    Creeper

  • IP_SEC
    IP_SEC

    Creeper,

    I dont believe any of it OT or NT.

    Was the ark's sole purpose simply to house the tablets of the 10 words, mana and aaron's staff?

  • Creeper
    Creeper

    IPSEC,

    Perhaps you could be a little more straight up, whle also having a bit more tact? I have said nothing to insult you, or to insinuate, but it seems that you are trying desperately to attack the Tanakh, instead of taking it at basic humble face value? Many who are sincere in their efforts to prove something wrong, will shut the door on possibilities before completely hearing them out.

    Now if you are seriously interested in a long and defined discussion about this, I would be willing to converse with you in detail. If this is the case, let me know, and I will drop you my phone number and we can start a look into this, beginning with the earliest scrolls available for us to transcribe. I have access to many Jewish scholars via email, who would also be willing to help you, if you are interested.

    Please PM me with a response, if so.

    Shalom,

    Creeper

  • Creeper
    Creeper

    IPSEC,

    May I ask why you do not believe any of it? OT or NT, as you state? Have you, first of all, read the entire Hebrew bible, including the major and minor prophets, the writings and psalms? If so, could you please comment on Nehemiah for me, chapters 9 and 10 dealing with the covenant.

    Shalom,

    Creeper

  • IP_SEC
    IP_SEC

    actually I will be in florida in june and would love to meet you. Going to Clearlake. You anywhere close to there?

    an open discussion on the board benifits more than just you and I but also those who read it.

    So...

    Was the ark's sole purpose simply to house the tablets of the 10 words, mana, and aaron's staff?

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    As IP_SEC pointed out, one of the big problems we have when reading the OT is that we naturally buy into what the authors of the Torah would have their readers believe, namely that the whole Torah was set right from the start, i.e. in Moses' time. As a result, most Biblical and historical (or archaeological) descriptions of Israelite religion down to the 6th century BC, and especially Josiah's reform, smack of "unfaithfulness" or "disobedience". There should have been one sanctuary and there are many (the "high places"). There should have been one god (or God) and there are several (Asherah, Ashtarte, Baal, etc.). Only the Aaronides should have worked as priests and many others did. There shouldn't have been images in worship and there are. The exceptions are just too many to be exceptions.

    At some point a paradigm shift becomes necessary. It occurs when you realise that the Torah is, in effect, antedated. And that most things which the Bible writers describe as "disobedience" (when they don't forget to pass judgement on them, which also happens) were, actually, the normal course of events -- until they were retroactively condemned from the 6th century onward.

    This also applies to the use of images in the worship of Yhwh. In Phoenicia the bull and the calf were representations of El and Baal, which both heavily influenced the Israelite Yhwh. The cherubim were temple guardians in all the region, down to Mesopotamia. The serpent/snake was a central symbol of Asherah, which is also known in Phoenicia but in Israel was none other than Yhwh's consort goddess (see http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/73244/1.ashx). The memories of such images could not simply be erased. They had to be explained away -- either as mere decorative or secondary features in the worship of an aniconic (imageless) Yhwh in Jerusalem, or as "false worship" elsewhere (such as the "golden calf" in Bethel and Dan).

  • Creeper
    Creeper

    Where are you getting the idea that the ark contained anything other then the 10 commandments?

    1Ki 8:9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, when Jehovah made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

    Here is an article on this topic a friend of mine wrote...

    In the Pentateuch, we read about the 10 commandments being a separate set of guidelines written by the finger of God himself on two stone tablets, and being placed inside the ark of the covenant. Once again, these 10 commandments, the first of several commands given through Moses, were written on stone tablets and placed INSIDE the ark by themselves. Here are the supporting scriptures for this:

    Exo 34:28 And he was there with Jehovah forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

    Deu 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even the ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

    Deu 10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which Jehovah spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and Jehovah gave them unto me.

    Exo 24:12 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee the tables of stone, and the law and the commandment, which I have written, that thou mayest teach them.

    Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, the two tables of the testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

    Deu 9:11 And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that Jehovah gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.
    As we can see clearly from these aforementioned texts, the Decalogue was clearly written by itself on the stone tablets that were placed by themselves within the ark of the covenant. This is Yahweh's testimony. These texts would normally be quoted from the ISR (Scriptures 98') but some email recipients cannot receive Hebrew letters, so I have gone with the ASV, which at least makes some attempt at keeping the name of Yahweh instead of "THE LORD".

    In the following texts I will show how the ten were placed within the ark of the covenant alone.

    Exo 25:16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.

    Exo 40:20 And he (Moses) took and put the testimony into the ark, and set the staves on the ark, and put the mercy-seat above upon the ark:

    1Ki 8:9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, when Jehovah made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.
    Now it is apparently clear from the text of scipture that these commandments written on stone tablets were placed inside the ark of the covenant and are with God to this very day. We have a text in Revelation that proves this rather simple fact. They are not a curse, they are not a weak beggarly thing, they are not "rudiments of the world", and they are certainly not traditions and doctrines of men!

    Rev 11:19 And there was opened the temple of God that is in heaven; and there was seen in his temple the ark of his covenant; and there followed lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail. Might I suggest that a great deal of Christians are misled? Might I suggest that when Paul speaks of certain things, we are not entirely sure what he is saying? To this day, many of his statements baffle me. But one thing I am certain of, is that no matter how misunderstood his truths are, he is speaking the truth, and it is in agreement with Yahweh and his commands. I would like to now consider a text from Galatians that is not often deeply studied I am sure. I have discovered something that I myself never bothered to look at in depth:

    Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. At first glance, and even the second, third and fortieth glance, many Christians assume that this verse is talking about the 10 commandments. But I suggest the possibility that it is not. I suggest that it is talking about the whole "book" of the law which does include the 10 commandments, but is not the 10 be themselves. In other words, the 10 are also part of the book, but are also separate as well.

    Let's look at some texts in Deuteronomy and then I will try to elaborate on this in detail:

    Deu 28:58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, JEHOVAH THY GOD;
    Deu 28:59 then Jehovah will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.

    Deu 29:20 Jehovah will not pardon him, but then the anger of Jehovah and his jealousy will smoke against that man, and all the curse that is written in this book shall lie upon him, and Jehovah will blot out his name from under heaven.

    Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
    Deu 31:25 that Moses commanded the Levites, that bare the ark of the covenant of Jehovah, saying,
    Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of Jehovah your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
    Deu 31:27 For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against Jehovah; and how much more after my death?
    Now I am no theologian, or scholar, or expert in exegesis, but I do think I have something here that is making more sense to me and many others then most of what the Christian world has to offer for an explanation to Paul's words.

    IF the curse of the law is found within the book of the law of Moses, and not in the ark of the covenant itself, since the book is placed outside the ark of the covenant, and not within it, could we safely assume that there is a possibility that the 10 commandments are still very much alive to this day and are in fact a requirement for us? If love is the fulfillment of the law, and the 10 commandments summarize love for Yahweh and love for each other, then the 10 are spiritual.

    I also see small parallels in the significance of separating Israel into a "10 tribe Kingdom" and a "2 tribe Kingdom" and the way the 10 commandments were summarized by the Messiah into 2 basic concepts. Although this was also done in the Hebrew bible as well. (Love Yahweh and Love neighbor)..

    I have found many parallels like this that indicate that Yahweh's physical to spiritual parallel is amazing and wonderful. For instance, one can safely say that the reason Dan might not be included in the list of Israelite tribes in the book of Revelation Chapter 4 might have to do with the parallel of Judas being cast out and replaced with Matthias.

    I plan to comment on many more things like this as the word of God is always fascinating for me to study and accept, all of it, every word of Yahweh is inspired and beneficial for us to LIVE BY...

    Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
    2Ti 3:16 Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness.
    2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.

    1Jo 5:2 Hereby we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and do his commandments.
    1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

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