by Perry 450 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I simply note that your God is mysteriously absent.Not from me... I made my peace. No jackass elder can ever take that from me again.
Could you kindly have Him give the rest of us a call? Or does he only chat with you and your feathered-friend because you're so special?
You calling me a jackass elder? Let's see you do that in real life!
Lore says:..."On the contrary, there's nothing perfect about it. I don't live in a perfect world, I don't have a perfect body, and I don't exist in a perfect universe. Do you?"
: )
I showed that one off for quite some time.
The human body is an amazingly complex design. ALL PARTS working together in near perfection make life possible. While imperfection ALSO EXISTS TODAY, the very fact of the matter is that it would be impossisble for the human body and brain with its many systems to just happen all on its own.
You choose to focus on the word "perfect" being used rather than the meat and substance of the arguments presented.
And we all know why...
Hey Hillary,
Care to explain how you can test your infinite digression of cause and effect events? Unless of course you have another explanation for the origin of the universe?
You calling me a jackass elder?
I was referring to our former teachers that kept us from accepting Christ as a way of making peace with God.
what utter rubbish. There can be no such thing as a self existing "first cause", your arguement itself precludes it.
An "ad infinitum digression of cause and effect events", of course, it's what the future and past are madeof.
Where is your prooof of "his handi-work everywhere"? All I see are a vast number of geological and biological interactions which form the work in which we live. I don't need to believe in some phantom spaghetti monster to think our world is wonderful.
Vinny - you are a retard.
Hilary step says:..."So, as YOU have made this heady declaration, I now suggest that you prove it."
***** I guess Hilary missed the last two threads. Smart move hilary, that is if you prefer to beleive all things happened from nothing.
But since you asked, I will be happy oblige and answer why I believe God has no beginning and no end. Though it has been posted before, it is my pleasure to repost again... just for you hilary.
1- Everything which has a beginning has a cause. This an understood and accepted principle in human civilizations throughout the earth. If it had a beginning, then somebody or something made it. Fairly simple. The computers each of us are using at this moment had to be made by somebody. Mine was made by Apple, for example. But if there were no name mentioned at all, we still know that somebody had to make it. Design begets a designer.
2- The Universe, including our earth (and all life upon the earth) had a beginning. Most scientists believe in the 'Big Bang" theory. While omitting God altogether, the common belief is that it did have a definite beginning and is still developing and expanding.
3- Therefore, the Universe, that had a beginning, must also have a Cause. That Cause, in my opinion is God.
4-The bible, in my opinion, is a reliable source of information. It claims to be authored by God. There is an abundance of evidence that it could be authored by God. As briefly listed on another thread (now defunct) here is a very short list of reasons why I believe the bible is from God and thus a reliable, trustworthy source of information today:
"For me, the idea that all four of gospel writers just made up these accounts about Jesus Christ is not something I quickly buy into. The way they claim to have changed their lives, leaving many significant occupations and other personal things behind, leads me to believe they sure found something powerfully persuasive in this person called Christ. They also admit their mistakes which only adds to their credibility in my mind. Likewise the bible writer Paul; he certainly had something dramatic happen to him. He claims to have had a vision of Christ himself, became blind, went to Ananias as instructed and received his sight back. Then completely changed his direction from a persecutor of Christians to becoming an ardent member, one of the foremost of the apostles actually, spearheading the preaching of Christ to the Gentiles. The apostles did not even trust or believe him initially, which again, only adds to the believability in my opinion. I guess all of these writers could have just made these things up. That is possible. But it is also possible they happened just as were written. And if so, then we have some very interesting events taking place that would support Jesus' claim to be God's son, representing God himself. And if so, then what he says about God, about the earth, the future, life... can be and should be seriously considered. I would consider such a source as very reliable. Very trustworthy, *IF* these accounts about him are true.
The many prophecies written that had exact fulfillments adds ever more weight to possibility of the bible being more than just some good book. The bible's statement that the earth is round, and that it hangs upon nothing, though men at that time believed the earth was flat, again adds value to the claim that it is from a higher source than men. Are all of these just mere coincidences? It is possible, I guess. But it's also possible that these facts give evidence that the source of these prophecies and scientific accuracies is from a much higher source than humans, who cannot predict the future with any kind of certainty. There are not only a couple of such prophecies, but literally hundreds which exact, detailed fulfillment.
There is secular testimony as well, that Christ did exist and did perform miraculous events. The calendar we use today is based on the very year he was born. Just a coincidence? A person that really did not exist at all, or whose accomplishments were greatly exaggerated? Possible, I guess. But possibly not. The scriptures contain numerous accounts of miracles where people were brought back to life, sick and dying were healed, people were miraculously fed whether from food falling out of the sky or a few fishes feeding thousands, olive oil and bread jars that never ran out and other examples. Sea's were parted, were walked on and calmed down upon commands. You do not hear stories like this today, with hundreds of eye-witnesses to collaborate. This collection of books is available in over 2000 languages today. It the worlds best selling book of all time. The information contained is also very practical for those that wish to believe it and apply it. The Golden Rule for example. Children obeying their parents is another. Husbands loving their wives as their own bodies makes good marriages even better. And answer when mild turns away rage is a proven valuable principle in life. Jesus sermon on the mount in Matthew chapters 5-7 is still considered by many to be the greatest speech ever given. Priceless gems for many.
Is it possible then that this bible is from God? I believe it is possible, and even very probable. If so, if it is from God himself, then the very question as to how life arrived is answered. Because it also tells the reader that God himself made these things that we see today. No soup-like conditions that somehow evolved into the beautiful yet complex systems we see surrounding us today. It answers many of man's perplexing questions. Does it answer everything? No, it does not. Yet it does say there are new scrolls to be opened. It talks about everlasting life being possible for those that believe and apply God's sons teachings in his life. A life where death and pain and mourning are things of the past. Not the kind of life we see today. It promises these things we see causing pain and death and heartaches will be done away completely and permanently. That is a beautiful hope. Many other answers, too many to list here are given as well. If the bible is true then, the human race has much to look forward to.
For me, it does make sense. It does offer hope. It is worth putting my trust in. It does offer answers as well as a good measure of comfort. It is believable."
5- The bible tells us that God had NO beginning.
Psalm 90:2 ...Even from time indefinite to time indefinite you are God.
psalm 93:2... You are from time indefinite to time indefinite.
Isaiah 57:15 ....God is ‘the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity’
Revelation 15:3 ...righteous and true are your ways, King of Eternity.Revelation 15:3 ...righteous and true are your ways, King of Eternity.
If the bible is inspired of God (as I have sound reason to believe, by the reasons posted above), and if what it says is true that God had No Beginning, where then is the need for a Cause or designer? This is perhaps the crux of my argument then; NOBODY created God, because according inspired scripture, God had no beginning, hence eliminating the need for a cause altogether. This is the only example, the one sole instance where this principle would apply. All other features of the universe including the earth as well as all life on the earth, the spirit world and anything else anywhere, had a beginning and thus demands a cause. God, the intelligent designer himself, exclusively, is this one sole exception.
No human beings were there in the beginning of the universe to witness what exactly happened. Brilliant minds today can only guess and try to formulate theories. The bible says pointedly: "In the Beginning God Created the heavens and the earth". There is sound and reasonable reasons to believe, as many (including some of the most intellectual minds ever born) in Creation. That all life as we know it today was deigned by the only one who is not subject to time, the only one that never had a beginning. The only one that is not confined by space and bound by physical laws. Laws in which he created and therefore would not be subject to. None of which here is a stretch to either grasp, believe or understand. It makes sense to me. It is believable, logical and reasonable.
Some like to suggest, "well you cannot prove this, so you really cannot say with any certainty that you believe this". And for those that do feel this way, I disagree. I should add, I "respectfully" disagree. I have no problems with others that feel differently than I. But I can believe and do believe in the existence of God, through more than just faith itself. Though faith is an integral part of this equation too. In fact it is needed to a degree. But there is also EVIDENCE, logical PROOF that an Intelligent Designer is responsible for all features of life today. Complex, intelligent, purposeful systems that reflect the intellect of that designer himself. There are numerous court cases that have gone to trial where all of the evidence is circumstantial. Perhaps no body has been found. Still, today's technology now allows trace evidences and other signs to give very convincing testimony that a crime was committed. Juries have been thoroughly and unitedly and fully convinced to convict criminals based on such outside, circumstantial evidence exclusively. Likewise then, there are numerous "evidences" that all life arrived due to the hand of a Master Designer. The complexity and uniformity, the order and structure, the harmony of system after system, feature after feature, from the smallest molecules to the incredible living breathing life forces surrounding us all, to the incredibly complex earth where so many systems are just perfectly balanced all working together to allow life to exist are evidences to me that somebody surely must be responsible. The far more complex, far more powerful and awe inspiring universe with star after star, planet after planet solar system after solar system all beautifully organized, with inconceivable, unimaginable amounts of power and energy, give further testimony, in my mind, that these things did not just "happen" through some unguided series of accidents. Just some fortuitous combination of circumstances. A blind fluke of good fortune?
As Einstein astutely stated, "God does not play dice with the universe". So though we cannot see God, we can see EVIDENCE that he does indeed exist. Just as we cannot see our own brains or gravity, or oxygen etc... the evidence that these things are nonetheless real is overwhelming. For myself then, evidence that God exists is even more powerful. The evidence supports this belief for me.
After an examination of much evidence, I am 100 percent certain that these things surrounding us are the result of a Superior Designer. In my mind and in my sincere opinion God DOES exist. And He is responsible for my being here right now. I owe him the gratitude he so deserves. I thank him for letting me live and exist. Sure I am also here because my mother and father married, had intimate relations and I was born. But that process in itself is so complex, such an outstanding system of design that, for me, the credit rightfully goes to the Creator himself. This is why HE deserves the credit; my parents had me because a masterful designer created this process called REPRODUCTION. In fact there was very little on their part, to be truthful. He is worthy of worship in my mind. My questions as to how life arose are answered.
Now hilary, I have answered question. It is time for you to answer mine.
Please tell those following this thread just how these very complicated systems in the universe and the earth, along with all life forms upon the earth ORIGINATED. Just how did they START? If Science cannot create life, from non-living matter, in a controlled, scientific environment, nor give life BACK to a dead person or animal (though having all the parts needed right in front of them), then how could all these very things come to exist without ANY intellectual force behind them at all? Just FELL into place?
BWAAAAHAHHAAHAHHAHAH
Sure, there is a red corvette just sitting in North Dakota somewhere too..
ONCE AGAIN.
You calling me a jackass elder?I was referring to our former teachers that kept us from accepting Christ as a way of making peace with God.
Oh, my bad. Thanks! I'll agree with you on that one Perry.
I just dont get alot of the other things you say. Nothing personal. If you find your belief fulfilling and comforting, enjoy it.
I feel equally at peace and happy with my lack of belief.
Perhaps you could just tell me directly what you base your notions of good and bad on?
Well it's explained pretty darned good in the link I gave you, but I'll summarize:
Actions have consequences. If we care about the outcome of our decisions - if we want to make the best choice in a given situation - then we need a set of principles to guide us whenever we are faced with a set of options to choose from.
Have you ever heard of Game Theory? Take the case of soldiers on a battlefield. Each individual soldier wants to preserve his own life, and so if he lets self-interest guide his decisions, the safest course of action for him would be to abandon his comrades and run away from the battle. However, if every soldier makes that same decision, the enemy will overrun their position, and more of them will be killed or captured than if they had all stayed to fight it out.
So if you do what's best for yourself, and everyone else does what's best for the group, you'll make out like a bandit. But if you do what's best for yourself and everyone else does what's best for themselves, you'll be worse off than if you did what's best for the group (AKA "the right thing")
If you read the part about the Prisoners Dilemma it makes even more sense.
Morality is by definition the way a person behaves in those situations that take the form of an multi-person Prisoner's Dilemma.
Now then Perry perhaps you could just tell me directly what you base your notions of good and bad on...
Lore
Vinny, you still didn't answer my question.
How lame Lore... nothing new from you once again. Guess school has not helped much at all.
Coming from a man who thinks that an automobile is an accurate parallel to biological organisms, an insult to my intelligence doesn't meen a whole lot.
