How the Religious View Homosexuality

by serotonin_wraith 93 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  jgnat

  Serotonin, I offered up the evangelical explanation of sin, but I did not own it as mine. Sorry about the misunderstanding there.

  but is it your belief that God is going to punish them for their behaviour?

  Absolutely not! If as a human I conclude I must love my brothers, then God even more.

  You say a simple prayer of dedication will absolve them in God's eyes, but I always thought it had to be a prayer of repentance. Does a thief get a free pass if he dedicates his life to God, yet continues to steal? Does a pedophile have God's blessing if he does much to spread God's word, but at the same time continues to abuse children? I would be hesitant to think so.

  I won't answer these because I don't take the concept as my own. I used the word "dedication" to perhaps avoid some "trigger words" and get to the meat of things.

  You seem to have wished examples such as lying or gossiping could have been used. Is this because you see them as lesser sins?

  I wished XJW4.. had used those examples, because people tend to excuse them more. Also, they don't create the same trigger-response that say, pedophelia or rape does. But then XJW4.. made it clear he intended to rile his opponents. So I wash my hands of his analogy and the hole he buried himself in.

  On what basis do you decide what makes something more or less displeasing to God?

  1. Harm. Do no harm.
  2. The young, weak, vulnerable, and the next generation must be protected.
  3. Self-interest at the cost of (2) is evil.
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  parakeet

  From "The West Wing":
  
  
  
  
  
  Jacobs: I don't say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President, the Bible does.
  
  Bartlet: Yes, it does. Leviticus.
  
  Jacobs: 18:22.
  
  Bartlet: Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I had you here. I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be? While thinking about that, can I ask another? My chief of staff, Leo McGarry, insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or is it okay to call the police? Here's one that's really important because we've got a lot of sports fans in this town. Touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side-by-side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Think about those questions, would you?
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  Guest with Questions

  For me there is a difference between what people see as sins and what God sees as sins. I don't put pedophiles, murderers, etc on the same plane as homosexuality (as long as it's with a consenting adult) but I believe that to God that all sin separates us from Him.

  I had witnesses coming to my door a number of years ago and one mentioned about homosexuality and I was a bit irritated, not because I condone homosexuality but because there are so many other sins that each one of us commits every day. I asked this person why she was targetting just this group; a man down the street could be abusing his wife; why not comment on that also.

  I don't believe we have the right to target a particular group of people and condemn them. Promiscuity is sin whether heterosexual or homosexual. I know these remarks aren't politically correct but as a Christian I don't believe homosexuality is right.

  Does a thief get a free pass if he dedicates his life to God, yet continues to steal? Does a pedophile have God's blessing if he does much to spread God's word, but at the same time continues to abuse children?

  God forgives us when we are truly remorseful but I doubt that when we willfully abuse a child that we were ever repentant. If we have a problem we seek help, but if you continue without seeking help you're obviously not wanting to change.
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  onlycurious

  As a Christian, I would have to answer this question in one way alone: "What have you done with Jesus?"

  I do believe homosexuality is a sin. However, sin is sin and nothing more than sin.

  I believe we all need Jesus. It's not the persons sexuality that separates him/her from entering into a relationship. It's whether or not the person believes that Jesus died for the sins of mankind and receives that covering of forgiveness.

  Ultimately, I have learned the hard way over the years. God is the One in control, not any ranting and raving of Christians shoving doctrine down people's throats. It's the love of God and His embrace that changes the hearts of each and every one of us. He knows the condition of our hearts, our weaknesses and so forth. So yes, while I don't believe homosexuality is the way God designed us, I certainly am not going to tell every gay person I meet that. It's not up to me to decide what a person does or doesn't do in the bedroom and me telling them that certainly isn't going to break down any barriers that the church has put up over the years.

  Does this make any sense?
• 

  serotonin_wraith

  jgnat:

  If as a human I conclude I must love my brothers, then God even more.

  When God made the rule for the Israelites to stone homosexuals, are you saying that if the Israelites wanted to treat them with love instead, that they could have overidden God's law?

  I can understand about the trigger words. I see them as being decided by humans to be worse things to do than others. But the Bible makes no such distinction. Do you think that human morality and the morality set out in the Bible are different?

  Harm. Do no harm.
  The young, weak, vulnerable, and the next generation must be protected.
  Self-interest at the cost of (2) is evil.

  I can agree 100%. However, this comes from human morality, not that of the Bible. If we are choosing which parts we agree with or not, how is the Bible to be used as a moral guide? (If you believe it should be).

  Guest With Questions:

  God forgives us when we are truly remorseful but I doubt that when we willfully abuse a child that we were ever repentant. If we have a problem we seek help, but if you continue without seeking help you're obviously not wanting to change.

  Would this mean that you believe gays need to change their sexuality aswell as ask forgiveness?

  onlycurious, if you believe gays are not the way God designed us, and that it came about by the fall of man (I'm assuming you believe that) then can you explain how there are gay animals in the world, who did not sin against God?
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  drew sagan

  You say a simple prayer of dedication will absolve them in God's eyes, but I always thought it had to be a prayer of repentance. Does a thief get a free pass if he dedicates his life to God, yet continues to steal? Does a pedophile have God's blessing if he does much to spread God's word, but at the same time continues to abuse children? I would be hesitant to think so.

  Seems like you are trying to put some limits on the grace of God.
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  Sirona

  Reading this thread it occurs to me that there are debates as to whether the bible actually condemns homosexuality.

  For those who are saying that the practice of homosexuality is a sin, could you explain which bible passages say that homosexuality is wrong? I would personally exclude the old testament because we all know that the old law was replaced by Jesus. So what new testament passages condemn homosexuality?

  This link is VERY interesting:

  There is no passage in the Christian Scriptures that condemns same-sex committed relationships or same-sex marriage. Romans 1 condemns Christian apostates who apparently had a heterosexual orientation and who engaged in what was for them unnatural sex: engaging in sex with members of the same sex.

  1 Corinthians 6 and 1 Timothy 1 are ambiguous. They might possibly relate to homosexual behavior; but they might well refer to men who sexually abuse boys, or to male gigolos, or to male temple prostitutes. We just don't know. If these passages actually referred to persons with a homosexual orientation, they probably would not refer to loving, consensual same-sex behavior in a committed relationship.

  Paul was writing before the existence of a homosexual orientation was known. The only forms of homosexual behavior of which he was probably aware would have been males sexually abusing boys, and men engaging in of same-sex orgies during Pagan worship.

  Jude 1:7 appears to refers to the desire by the men of Sodom to engage in bestiality with another species -- angels. There is none of this going on in by either homosexuals or heterosexuals today.

  http://www.religioustolerance.org/hombiblnt.htm
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  jgnat

  When God made the rule for the Israelites to stone homosexuals, are you saying that if the Israelites wanted to treat them with love instead, that they could have overidden God's law?

  I'm not one of those Christians who insists that the bible is as inerrant and infallible as a god. Yes, if an Isrealite halted the angry mob and cried, "No, this is not right, he is my brother!" all the power to him. Very much as Jesus did for the woman caught in adultery. Jesus showed how the law was inadequate, that the law of love transcends. (Matthew 5:17-48) Ironically, living by love is more demanding than a book of rules.

  ...Do you think that human morality and the morality set out in the Bible are different?

  I think God's morality transcends by far, the morality set out in the bible. It is but a poor reflection.

  I can agree 100%. However, this comes from human morality, not that of the Bible.

  You see it as human, I see it as from God. My image of the ideal and pure comes from my image of God.

  If we are choosing which parts we agree with or not, how is the Bible to be used as a moral guide?

  There are principles that override all. Follow the principles, and the laws don't matter. For instance, a young mother might say, "Don't pick that old gum off that tire, it's dirty. Didn't I tell you not to pick up old gum?" Johnny replies, "You told me not to pick up gum from the ground." Now, mom could make a few new rules, "Don't pick up old gum from tires, the ground, under seats or tables." Or she could lay down a general principle, "Don't put dirty, used stuff in your mouth."

  So I see no need to be a slave to individual rules, as long as I follow the (higher, more difficult) principles that the rules were based on.
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  onlycurious

  "onlycurious, if you believe gays are not the way God designed us, and that it came about by the fall of man (I'm assuming you believe that) then can you explain how there are gay animals in the world, who did not sin against God?"

  Join the dots: While God did create the animals, I don't recall anywhere in scripture where God designed a plan for animals to obtain salvation from their sins. The sinful state of man is written as being mans problem, not the animal kingdoms.

  It's nothing you haven't heard before I'm sure, but when God created Adam and Eve, He didn't create "Adam and Steve".

  While the parts may 'fit', I've never heard of 2 men or 2 women procreating. This certainly isn't to assume in any way that sex is designed strictly FOR procreation. Also, scripture is quite clear. I didn't write the Book, I just read it.
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  Finally-Free

  XJW4EVR: Sinners are all equal to me.

  So, if all sinners are equal than you yourself must be no better than a pedophile.

  W