How the Religious View Homosexuality (page 9)

smellsgood

Hey serotonin_wraith

you said:

"I can agree 100%. However, this comes from human morality, not that of the Bible."

smellsgood: I think that its interesting that you said "human morality." It's interesting to me to think of "morality" in light of all the diverging viewpoints, on well, everything in the world.

So, where does it come from? Especially in light of survival of the fittest...why are we not driven to discard "defective" children for instance? They do nothing for us. They are a burden to their parents and society (even if their parents "love" them). They don't contribute intellectually or financially to our society, etc. So, why don't we, just as the Spartans, or even the Romans, get rid of them? Like Eugenics was trying to do in the early 20th century? Route them out and dispose of them? What is the "moral" hangup and why can we not intellectually overcome it in the interest of bettering our Society? Non-contributive=worthless does it not?

What if I kicked you in the shins because I felt like it? What if you got upset about it? Well, then I say, to hell with your standard, I am autonomous and do as I please.

Please look at this as I do as a philosophical inquiry, trying to leave preconceived notions, ego, prejudices and bias behind.

Interesting thing to think about. I think Neitschze concluded it right before he turned mad.

smellsgood

serotonin_wraith

I believe human morality comes from our need to survive.

Working together and not killing each other allows for humans to be better off. We are all reliant on each other. We do to others as we would like them to do to us, because we do not wish to die or be harmed. We also try to treat others well because it is human nature to do so.

Whatever chemical reactions are going in the brain, they make it hard for us to ignore a crying baby, for example. We have no need to kill off anyone who doesn't 'measure up' because the human race isn't going to die out as a result. We are trying to find cures for these 'defective' people.

Not everyone contributes to society, but it depends how specific you want to get on the issue. A disabled child's smile can contribute to another person feeling happy. After being given help (instead of being killed) Stephen Hawking has done much to add scientific knowledge to the world. Regardless, contributing to society is not necessary to be allowed to live.

Survival of the fittest doesn't always apply. It may do if we are fighting another race or species, but in these cases we are not.

Are you suggesting morality comes from the Bible? Why then, have we moved away from slavery, stoning disobedient children, persecuting homosexuals, treating women as inferior, etc etc?

Dansk

I have quickly skimmed through this thread and have found 144001's comments to my particular liking:

The Watchtower experience taught me to question authority, and never assume that things are what they purport to be simply because someone says they are. The scientific method is the best means of determining real "truth," and although science has not conclusively determined the origin of human existence, I'd prefer to rely on science than an entirely unscientific, unauthenticated book written by man in an apparent effort to control and/or exploit other humans.

On finding that Watchtower was packaging lies as truth I immediately left the organisation. I then decided that if Watchtower was full of garbage then, perhaps, the Bible was too. I joined an Ancient Bible History group and thoroughly researched the origins of the Bible. I found the Bible was, indeed, not the word of God at all but written by men to control other men (and women). Admittedly, there are some beautiful stories in the Bible and some admirable morals - but stories is all they are!

I, too, look to science now to find the truth of anything/everything. It is true that science sometimes gets it wrong - but the beauty of science is that when other scientists discover that a teaching/finding is wrong they publish their challenging findings and any mistakes are rectified. This is totally unlike religion which refuses to yield to the truth. The Hewbrew religion has been proven to be based on fables, superstitions and the teachings of other nations, e.g. Persia (Iran) and Iraq. Christianity is false, obviously, because it relies so much on "its" hebrew past.

All "God-directed" religions have their roots entirely in falsehood. Christians, in the main, do not want to believe that their religion is hugely flawed. They, like so many other religionists, want something to hold on to. I can fully understand this! Remember, I was a JW for 15 years and had a strong belief in the Bible and the hope of a resurrection. It hurt to find out I had been hoodwinked - but being hurt is no excuse for not wanting to find the truth!!

Ian

Dansk

Sorry, to keep the thread on track:

Being that I no longer believe in God homosexuality cannot be considered a sin. As someone has already stated, there can be more genuine love found in a homosexual relationship than in some heterosexual. I am 100% heterosexual but I know some homosexuals - many here! - who are the salt of the earth. People are people and should be judged as such and not on their gender or sexual orientation.

In the main, the theistic religions condemn homosexuality - but as God doesn't exist and the religious books were penned by men (see my post above) who gives a jot what religions think?

Ian

smellsgood

"Are you suggesting morality comes from the Bible? Why then, have we moved away from slavery, stoning disobedient children, persecuting homosexuals, treating women as inferior, etc etc?"

Not even slightly. I believe there is a "law" if you will, that is very present, and we recognise, regardless of what we have or haven't read, when a person is doing something AGAINST that law.

In fact, it always makes me cringe when I hear religious folks saying that atheists "can't" be Moral. That's absolute nonsense. What such an observation as Morality seems to be innate and objective entails,,,that should be the real focus. So many things that are esteemed as "good" morals, even if you were to remove the "right and wrong" of them, and take a second look, can then be reevaluated to be "good" in a different way. Good for the environment, good for health, good for society et cetera, and this is part of the "law of Nature."

What is interesting to think about is why do we have that standard. I can only read the works of those who can cognitively realise the consequences of certain beliefs. "If this is true, then..."

It seems to me, that we all owe it to ourselves to try as best we can is take the ego out of the very ideas that float through our head. Meaning, that we don't become so involved with our ideas to the point where they are our whole identity, that we cannot step aside and rationally think "If then..."

I think one should never get to comfortable or complacent, always testing the veracity of their beliefs at the time. What is interesting is trying to comprehend the true and inavoidable consequences default in such a belief as atheism. To reason that if evolution is true...then...is just as valid a criteria for it's worth as all biological and Scientific evidence.

No, I'd rather the bible be taken out of the discussion completely. It's not about religious texts. That's why I said Neitschze had it right in the end. :)

smellsgood

"Whatever chemical reactions are going in the brain, they make it hard for us to ignore a crying baby, for example. We have no need to kill off anyone who doesn't 'measure up' because the human race isn't going to die out as a result. We are trying to find cures for these 'defective' people."

Are all biological and chemical functions simply a way of 'preserving' the species?

aniron

To use that well worn phrase "Some of my friends, work mates etc, are gay." So I know that apart from their sexual orientation, they are no different than anyone else. In my younger days may have gone down that path myself.

Funnily in the last 2-3 years the ones who have contacted me, probably 6-8 guys, telling me they are gay, have been JW's. Seems thats because I originally helped two others and I have ended up a sort of unofficial counseller.

Boy! and have they told me some stories of goes on among young JW males.

Now as regards them being "allowed" to be in a "Christian" religion, running the whole gamut from Catholic to JW's and so forth.

I have always looked at it this way. If you want to join any other organisation or club etc you agree to abide by their rules.

If upon wanting to join say a club, and one of the rules is that I can only wear black shoes. But I only ever wear brown shoes. What right have I to demand a change in rules to suit me. I knew what the rules were so why join? A simple illustration I know.

The Christian faith says that as a Christian you cannot practise being homosexual.

Then why become a Christian? No one is forcing you to be one.

If a homosexual finds a "church" that has no problem with them, then go to that church, or even start your own.

But don't expect others to undermine their faith just so you can fit in.

Also what "Religious view" are we talking about here? Is it just the "Christian" view?

Not having read all the posts. Has anyone mentioned Islam? After all it is a religion.

The Christian faith says "Sorry we can't allow you in our church until you change."

Islam says "You are an evil thing and we are going to hang, stone, behead etc any of you we find, even if you are not Muslim."

We have only to look at countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran for such treatment of homosexuals.

I still find the pictures of them hanging two young boys 16 and 18 in Iran, horrifying.

Yes I know there are extreme "Christian" groups who would probably like to do the same.

It also seems to me that is the "non-religious", that is, those that don't attend any church or just say they are "Christian" that seem to shout the most over this issue.

Personally as a Christian I have no qualms about gays attending my church. Its their conscience they have to deal with not mine.

How the Religious View Homosexuality

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