I'd send them a picture of you giving them the chocolate star...
And another pic of you and your family holding Crisis of Conscience and smiling
JC is over... now the aftermath
by drew sagan 66 Replies latest jw friends
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slimboyfat
Hey Drew,
To his face I would like to tell him that he more than anybody else crushed my faith that their was any goodness in the Watchtower.
That doesn't sound like a good idea to me, because it doesn't sound convincing. It seems your faith in the Witnesses was shaken well before this elder proved less than reliable in his promises. So I don't think it is a good idea to try to guilt him up by pretending his actions were more effectual than they really were as regards your stance on "the Watchtower". By all means tell him you are disappointed in him as a friend and as spiritual counsellor. But don't pretend more than that because he is bound to see through it, and even the legitimate appeal to his humanity in the situation may be lost in the confusion.
Slim
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wednesday
agree with Mary.
I'd focus on the LYING DECEIT ETC. Since you seem to have some clout use it. The letters sounds great but still I'd stay away fro 607 it is a red flag for apostasy.
I refuse to play by their rules and DA myself and it has the same implications as DF actually worse.
hang on you are not DF yet don't' let them force you out. leave on your own terms which is fading.
they are bullies as you see so clearly.
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M.J.
Yeah I tend to agree with SBF on this one...don't get too carried away on how elder b tore your whole world down.
Regarding elder B. I think a common reaction among JWs is to be thoughtful to a point...until something is triggered which changes the whole framing of the situation in their mind from a realistic framework to the cult framework. Instantly they see themselves from the cult framework and it aint pretty. Then they become extra fanatical to compensate.
From the movies the closest illustration I can think of is from the "Sound of Music" at the end when that Nazi kid almost let the family escape, until the father said "you'll never be one of them". That was the trigger point.
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drew sagan
slimboyfat
I said 'any goodness left'. He personally made the appeal to me that many of the elders viewed things to harshly and that he hoped it would change someday. My saying so would not be out of line because I told him before we started that he was one of the last few people I trusted talking too. He tried to tell me he was different but acted no differently.
BTW, I still think we are going to go with what minimus suggested, being that we send a letter to the local body of elders telling them our distress on how this elder tricked us. Further we will go to my wifes parents to back us up because they where also told the same things by this man.
If my in-laws ever wanted to see that this organization doesn't care about people, and elder body that hides its wrongs is a perfect case.
-Drew -
wednesday
I was reading undercover post about his upcoming surgery and how he is in this alone. I think it is so easy for us to type out "fight them' when we are not facing losing our family.
I sincerely wish you the best and I still feel that if you DA yourself you are letting them off really easy. The letters sound really good. I have read posts where others did this same thing. You do seem to have a bit of clout and some in laws. if your family will stay by you you can do some damage here.
we are not going to change the lying and deceit unless we expose them. I am so glad you taped it.
Sending you really positive thoughts and a bug cyber hug and prayers for your well being. don't let them get you so upset you can't think straight. and remember its unlikely anyone will stand behind you unless its your family.
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drew sagan
wednesday, everything you said was so true. Thanks for your comments.
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compound complex
Greetings, Drew -
I admire you for standing up to them and not caving. Perhaps, if and when my time comes, I will recall what you have done as an incentive to me and any whom I help exit.
Ironic - today is the "Y's" anniversary - 1844. There are two threads running now on that and other important events of 6 June.Peace to you and your wife,
CoCo
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Vinny
If you are going to be shunned for the rest of your life by these folks (and shunned you shall), then why should it be because you are viewed as some "unrepentant sinner"?
THAT is the label they will tag on you for good. You are toast under these circumstances in the eyes of JW's for good. While being misapplied in your case, the bible does support some form of discipline for wrongdoing. Disfellowshipping is for unrepentant, wrongdoing "SINNERS" exclusively in their eyes. That will be your label then, if you allow them to disfellowship you.
On the other hand, by instead choosing to WALK AWAY from the JW religion, as you intend to do, due to your simply disagreeing with specific doctrine (607, Blood etc), or other issues, THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR SUCH COMPLETE SHUNNING.
This is an argument I have used over and over again. Where does the bible support complete shunning for a person that simply chooses to walk away from a particular religious denomination without sinning? There is no answer because it is not scripturally supported. The JW's demand bible studies send a letter of disassociation to their former church before allowing a JW baptism. Yet if a JW does it they are completely cut-off and labeled. How hyprcritical. I have debated this with many a JW, there is no scriptural support for shunning individuals that walk away from an institution yet remain a believer. This has troubled many a JW. It is instead a control mechanism used to keep the faith damaging information (that you have) quarantined. It minimizes damage control. And it works.
Additionally, try telling your neighbors-friends-relatives etc about how you are now being negatively labeled and completely SHUNNED by all JW's --including your own family-- simply because you disagreed with one current JW teaching. This fact alone gives the JW faith a very bad reputation. The reactions to hearing about such JW policies as this are usually severe. My own neighbors, friends and family were outraged when hearing about all this. And they tell others just what happened to me.
I would suggest doing exactly what you intend to do then, by disassociating, only making the reasons for your disassociating more doctrinal (which is the reality here) than because of one wimpy little JW elder newbie throwing you under the bus. They will use that against you too if you put too much emphasis on that reason. "One little bad elder made Drew run away". The org is filled with people like that anyway. That experience of wimpy new elder only adds to the problem, but should not BE the problem or reason for leaving. "People make mistakes all of the time", Is what you will hear and is a fact. But the ORGANIZATION that God is supposedly using today, to dispense "food at the proper time", making mistake after mistake, having failure after failure, while currently enforcing unscriptural policy after policy is another thing entirely.
Let people know that one cannot even disagree with anything without being ultimately kicked out.
Let people know that once you check in as a JW, you cannot check out. Some roach trap company says that about their roach traps. "Roaches check in but they can't chek out". (Don't wanna be like those roaches....
Let people know that bible studies never hear about all these WT "little problems" they have had since their entire 100 plus year existence.
Let people know about all the false predictions, no organ transplants, no vaccinations, no alternative service etc.
Let people know you must die rather than accept blood. And many other things similar.
Also, from my experience, don't be too surprised if your In-laws pull the same kind of stunt as newbie/wimpy/throw you under the bus/ "good elder" did. Seeing some JW unfairly treated usually does not cut it. Even if it is family. Don't be fooled by what they say, just like with "the good elder". Like yourself, they need to see that THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY ITSELF has the problems. The DOCTRINAL ISSUES are what cuts down the WT credibility in the eyes of JW's. Not Drew got shafted. They need to see these doctrinal mistakes, flip-flops, medical disasters, unscriptural policies etc etc to want to leave mother. It can happen the other way, but not often. In fact very rarely.
If you really wanted to fade then you should not have touched 607 when the elders stopped over. But you could not help it. This is normal in my opinion. You could have said sorry about "the Y", I'll withdraw membership immed, I did not know, thanks for your loving assistance. And then said Ijust don't want to talk about anything else, we are working through things. But you could not help it. You know too much now Drew. It is only natural to want to let everybody in on what really is your little secret as far as the JW's are concerned. I was on another thread a few days ago where Odrade has faded for years now and all her family is hardcore, and all living practically on her lap. Yet she pulled it off. Very few can do that. I sure could not. I don't want to ever be haandcuffed or duck taped the mouth shut. But for those with so much family involved, I can see why they would do it. You could not either. My wife has faded for one year but blew it two months ago when an elder stopped over at out biz location. She told him everything. But so far no hammer yet. Now she knows, if you want to fade, you have to zip it up for good.
I disassociated just over one year ago too. For me, it was the best thing and the right thing. I learned things about WT-world that destroyed the "one true faith" status for me. So, I told them it's just not for me, and here is a letter stating why. I can no longer bring people into the organization when I disagree with the organization's policies. Their now having to label and shun me is only one of the very reasons why I can no longer go along with their teachings. I don't care about all the "giving them the power" comments etc; the bottom line is if you disagree and say so, you will be disfellowshipped. So I disfellowshipped them, is how I look at it. And if Amber wants to just get it over with, then there is no need to wait. Though you should think it over carefully. I sent e-mails and called everybody that mattered in my cong before the announcement. After that there was a local-needs just about me, and warning all JW's not to talk with apostates or even answer their e-mails. My wife and daughter (who are both out now) were there at the meeeting and wanted to puke. It was just that obvious. So get to as many as you can, while you can. Let them you you are not being disfellowshipped for wrongdoing. It does sound better and I think it is a higher road to take.
I see people all the time since I live on an island. It gets very easy. Much easier for me than for them, that is for sure. It simply reminds you how cultish the org is and how controlled they truly are every time they look the other way.
Thanks for your story. It is a good one. Hope it all worksd out.
Peace to you and amberrose,
Vinny -
Will Power
Seems Elder B is a shining example of why most people want to leave the WT org. He says some things to you and your inlaws that seem like they are from the heart and sincere and probably were. Then the ORG steps in and he finds himself going against HIS conscience and better judgement (supposedly appointed by HS) supporting alliegence something other than God.
He has compromised his integrity to follow this "truth". ( add a ton of bible verses here)
which is the reason why YOU started asking questions in the first place. - Nothing to do with specifics (although the YMCA thing is hilarious)
sooner or later elder B's will have to deal with his own CRISIS OF CONSCIENCE.
wow - what a title!
I wish you both the best in whatever comes your way.
wp