FORGED (!?!?) ORIGINS of the NEW TESTAMENT (!?!?) (page 3)

VM44

Interesting article.

But EVERY statement made in it should be double (and triple) checked for validity.

--VM44

The wanderer

Dear Terry:

The story article may or may not have foundation.
However, consider the source very carefully before
drawing any conclusions.

Respectfully,

The Wanderer

Narkissos

I'm really only interested in what is false about the article I posted.

Well, re-read the article and cut off all references to junk like the "book of Eskra," to pre-Nicene Christian sources (which must be forged too if the main thesis is true) and see what remains of it. Then look up the list of 2nd and 3rd-century NT papyrii (some of which are mentioned in the above posts). Also, ask yourself why a 4th-century "forged" book would include so many contradictions (4 gospels, Matthew and James against Paul, etc.)... This is complete nonsense, but the very fact that some fairly educated people can buy into it (even for a short while) is quite revealing of the epistemological crisis that the internet age is just starting to bring about imo.

smellsgood

If the NT is so accurate please give me a legitimate outside source that speaks of Jesus, the rabble rouser, that drew such large crowds to Jerusalem and was a thorn in Romes side?

smellsgood: sinis, you misunderstand the point I'm trying to make, I'm making the point that the NT has a startling amount of MSS at a very early date historically. That's just a fact, and that mere fact does not attest to the "accuracy" of its contents. However, there are outside sources that speak of Jesus, I'm surprised you don't know about that. I do believe that people who write articles like this like most of us are, but not to this extreme degree, heavily biased to gather information based on their beliefs. The disturbing thing is they promote their ill informed and views as end of the line non-refutable truth. I'm also surprised that they are so ill informed on a topic they are writing authoritatively about. What gets under my skin is not the debate about Christianity and if one believes or not, but someone spreading information ignorantly.

However, a legitimate outside source that speaks of Jesus? Is your stand then that Jesus was a mythical person constructed from various myths, a man, a myth unattested outside of the NT? No historicity to a person Yehoshua who lived in Palestine?

CORNELIUS TACITUS (born A.D. 52-54)

Roman Historian, 112 A.D. Governer of Asia, son-in-law of Julius Agricola. During the reign of Nero, Tacitus alluded to the death of Christ and Christians in Rome:

"But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt and punished the Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurater of Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also." Annals XV.44

There is also mention of Jesus in a fragment of his Histories, having to do with the burning of the Jerusalem temple in A.D. 70, perserved by Sulpicius Severus (Chroni. ii. 30.6)

LUCIAN OF SAMOSATA

A satirist in the 2nd Century who was scornful of Christ and the Christians. He spoke of Christ as "...the man who was crucified in palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world....Furthermore, their first lawgiver persuaded them that they were all brothers one of another after they have transgressed once for all by denying the Greek gods and by worshipping that crucified sophist himself and living under his laws." The Passing Peregrinus

FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS

Jewish Historian, became a Pharisee at age 19; A.D. 66 he was commander of Jewish forces in Galilee. This is a contentius quotation, the arabic text is as follows:

"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and (He) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."

Found in the Arabic manuscript entitled "Kitah Al-Unwan Al-Mukallal Bi-Fadail Al-Hikma Al-Mutawwaj Bi-Anwa Al-Falsafa Al-Mundah Bi-Haqaq Al-Marifa" or "Book of History Guided by All the Virtues of Wisdom. Crowned with Various Philosophies and Blessed by the Truth of Knowledge."

Josephus also spok of James, in Antifquities XX9:1

"But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are sever in judgement oabove all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thoughte he had now a good opportuninty, as assembled a coucil of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as law-breakers, he delivered them over to be stoned."

SUETONIUS (A.D.120)

Roman historian, court official under Hadrian, annalist of the Imperial house

"As the Jewas were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome." also "Punishment by Nero was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition." Lives of the Caesars, 26.2

There is also

Plinius Secundus, Pliny the younger
Tertullian
Thallus
Phlegon, a 1st century historian
Letter of Mara Bar-Serapion
Justin Martyr

along with all the early Church fathers such as Polycarp who was a disciple of John the Apostle, and his students Irenaeus and Ignatius.

That's just history you know.

hillary_step

Narkissos,

This is complete nonsense, but the very fact that some fairly educated people can buy into it (even for a short while) is quite revealing of the epistemological crisis that the internet age is just starting to bring about imo.

I could not agree more with this statement. It has been a frequent complaint on my part as I have noticed the speed with which posters are apt to post links and information from the internet, accepting them as gospel (forgive the analogy!) without doing any real research. I am not singling out Terry here, as his modus is usually more focussed. I am thinking of those who do not seem to appreciate that there is no substitute for careful research.

My pet peeve in the 'online encyclopedia' Wikipedia, an erratic, patchy, superficial and more often than not innaccurate source of information that is very quickly hoisted in many an on-line debate. To me it is symptomatic of the weakness of the instant age that we live in that seems to be quite happy accepting that the tip of the iceberg is in fact all that matters.

HS

sinis

John E. Remsburg, in his scholarly work on "The Christ," has compiled a list of forty-two writers who lived and wrote during the time or within a century after the time, of Christ, not one of whom ever mentioned him.
Philo, one of the most renowned writers the Jewish race has produced, was born before the beginning of the Christian Era, and lived for many years after the time at which Jesus is supposed to have died. His home was in or near Jerusalem, where Jesus is said to have preached, to have performed miracles, to have been crucified, and to have risen from the dead. Had Jesus done these things, the writings of Philo would certainly contain some record of his life. Yet this philosopher, who must have been familiar with Herod's massacre of the innocents, and with the preaching, miracles and death of Jesus, had these things occurred; who wrote an account of the Jews, covering this period, and discussed the very questions that are said to have been near to Christ's heart, never once mentioned the name of, or any deed connected with, the reputed Savior of the world.
In the closing years of the first century, Josephus, the celebrated Jewish historian, wrote his famous work on "The Antiquities of the Jews." In this work, the historian made no mention of Christ, and for two hundred years after the death of Josephus, the name of Christ did not appear in his history. There were no printing presses in those days. Books were multiplied by being copied. It was, therefore, easy to add to or change what an author had written. The church felt that Josephus ought to recognize Christ, and the dead historian was made to do it. In the fourth century, a copy of "The Antiquities of the Jews" appeared, in which occurred this passage: "Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works; a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."
Such is the celebrated reference to Christ in Josephus. A more brazen forgery was never perpetrated. For more than two hundred years, the Christian Fathers who were familiar with the works of Josephus knew nothing of this passage. Had the passage been in the works of Josephus which they knew, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Origen an Clement of Alexandria would have been eager to hurl it at their Jewish opponents in their many controversies. But it did not exist. Indeed, Origen, who knew his Josephus well, expressly affirmed that that writer had not acknowledged Christ. This passage first appeared in the writings of the Christian Father Eusebius, the first historian of Christianity, early in the fourth century; and it is believed that he was its author. Eusebius, who not only advocated fraud in the interest of the faith, but who is know to have tampered with passages in the works of Josephus and several other writers, introduces this passage in his "Evangelical Demonstration," (Book III., p.124), in these words: "Certainly the attestations I have already produced concerning our Savior may be sufficient. However, it may not be amiss, if, over and above, we make use of Josephus the Jew for a further witness."
Everything demonstrates the spurious character of the passage. It is written in the style of Eusebius, and not in the style of Josephus. Josephus was a voluminous writer. He wrote extensively about men of minor importance. The brevity of this reference to Christ is, therefore, a strong argument for its falsity. This passage interrupts the narrative. It has nothing to do with what precedes or what follows it; and its position clearly shows that the text of the historian has been separated by a later hand to give it room. Josephus was a Jew -- a priest of the religion of Moses. This passage makes him acknowledge the divinity, the miracles, and the resurrection of Christ -- that is to say, it makes an orthodox Jew talk like a believing Christian! Josephus could not possibly have written these words without being logically compelled to embrace Christianity. All the arguments of history and of reason unite in the conclusive proof that the passage is an unblushing forgery.
For these reasons every honest Christian scholar has abandoned it as an interpolation. Dean Milman says: "It is interpolated with many additional clauses." Dean Farrar, writing in the Encyclopaedia Britannica, says: "That Josephus wrote the whole passage as it now stands no sane critic can believe." Bishop Warburton denounced it as "a rank forgery and a very stupid one, too." Chambers' Encyclopaedia says: "The famous passage of Josephus is generally conceded to be an interpolation."
In the "Annals" of Tacitus, the Roman historian, there is another short passage which speaks of "Christus" as being the founder of a party called Christians -- a body of people "who were abhorred for their crimes." These words occur in Tacitus' account of the burning of Rome. The evidence for this passage is not much stronger than that for the passage in Josephus. It was not quoted by any writer before the fifteenth century; and when it was quoted, there was only one copy of the "Annals" in the world; and that copy was supposed to have been made in the eighth century -- six hundred years after Tacitus' death. The "Annals" were published between 115 and 117 A.D., nearly a century after Jesus' time -- so the passage, even if genuine, would not prove anything as to Jesus.
The name "Jesus" was as common among the Jews as is William or George with us. In the writings of Josephus, we find accounts of a number of Jesuses. One was Jesus, the son of Sapphias, the founder of a seditious band of mariners; another was Jesus, the captain of the robbers whose followers fled when they heard of his arrest; still another Jesus was a monomaniac who for seven years went about Jerusalem, crying, "Woe, woe, woe unto Jerusalem!" who was bruised and beaten many times, but offered no resistance; and who was finally killed with a stone at the siege of Jerusalem.
The word "Christ," the Greek equivalent of the Jewish word "Messiah," was not a personal name; it was a title; it meant "the Anointed One."

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/marshall_gauvin/did_jesus_really_live.html

Lets at least be a little more honest when quoting sources as most of these sources are called into question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

Greco-Roman sources
See also: Yeshu and Yuz Asaf
Of the non-Christian writings from that time that have been preserved, very few mention Jesus or Christianity, and for that matter few of their authors showed much interest in Judea or the Near East in general. Nonetheless, there are passages relevant to Christianity in the works of four major non-Christian writers of the late 1st and early 2nd centuries – Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger – as well as others. However, these are generally references to early Christians rather than a historical Jesus. Of the four, Josephus' writings, which document John the Baptist, James the Just, and possibly also Jesus, are of the most interest to scholars dealing with the historicity of Jesus (see below). Tacitus, in his Annals written c. 115, mentions popular opinion about Christus, without historical details (see also: Tacitus on Jesus). There is an obscure reference to a Jewish leader called "Chrestus" in Suetonius. Pliny condemned Christians as easily-led fools.
[edit] Josephus
Main article: Josephus on Jesus
Flavius Josephus (c. 37–c. 100), a Jew and Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavians, wrote the Antiquities of the Jews in 93. In it, Jesus is mentioned twice. In the second very brief mentioning, Josephus calls James, "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ". [33] This is considered by the majority of scholars to be authentic, [34] though a few have raised doubts. [35]
More notably, in the Testimonium Flavianum, it is written:
About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvellous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day. [36]
Concerns have been raised about the authenticity of the passage, at least in part, and it is widely held by scholars that part of the passage is an interpolation by a later scribe. Judging from Alice Whealey's 2003 survey of the historiography, it seems that the majority of modern scholars consider that Josephus really did write something here about Jesus, but that the text that has reached us is corrupt to a perhaps quite substantial extent. In the words of the Catholic Encyclopedia entry for Flavius Josephus, "The passage seems to suffer from repeated interpolations." There has been no consensus on which portions are corrupt, or to what degree. In antiquity, Origen recorded that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Christ, [37] as it seems to suggest in the quote above. However, one may construe that when Josephus had written "He was the Christ," he may have simply been referring to Jesus by a name that the Roman people (Josephus' audience) had come to know Jesus as, considering that during the later part of the first century Jesus was simply known as "Christus" throughout Greek and Roman society (as is evident in Tacitus' reference below). If such an interpretation is true, the sentence would thusly be rendered as "He is the one known as the Christ." However, this interpretation is obviously debatable. Michael L. White argued against authenticity, citing that parallel sections of Josephus's Jewish War do not mention Jesus, and that some Christian writers as late as the third century, who quoted from the Antiquities, do not mention the passage. [38] While very few scholars believe the whole testimonium is genuine, [39] most scholars have found at least some authentic words of Josephus in the passage. [40] Certain scholars of Josephus's works have observed that this portion is written in his style. [41]
[edit] Tacitus
Main article: Tacitus on Jesus
Tacitus (c. 56–c. 117), writing c. 116, included in his Annals a mention of Christianity and Christ. In describing Nero's persecution of Christians following the Great Fire of Romec. 64, he wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt [of starting the blaze] and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. [42]
Tacitus simply refers to "Christus" the Latinized Greek translation of the Hebrew word "Messiah", rather than the name "Jesus", and he refers to Pontius Pilate as a "procurator", a specific post that differs from the one that the Gospels imply that he held—prefect or governor. In this instance, the Gospel account is supported by archaeology, since a surviving inscription discovered at Caeserae states that Pilate was prefect. [43]
Concerning Tacitus's source, it was likely an imperial record, and it has been controversially speculated that this may even have been one of Pilate's reports to the emperor. [44] R. E. Van Voorst noted the improbability that later Christians would have interpolated "such disparaging remarks about Christianity". [45] (See also the criterion of embarrassment.)
Biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman summarized the historical importance of this passage:
"Tacitus's report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, sometime during Tiberius's reign. We learn nothing, however, about the reason for this execution, or about Jesus' life and teachings." [46]
[edit] Suetonius
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus (c. 69–140) wrote the following in 112 as part of his biography of Emperor Claudius in his Lives of the Twelve Caesars about riots which broke out in the Jewish community in Rome around 49 or 50:
"As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome". [47]
The event was noted in Acts 18:2. The term Chrestus also appears in some later texts applied to Jesus, and Robert Graves, [48] among others, [49] consider it a variant spelling of Christ, or at least a reasonable spelling error. On the other hand, Chrestus was itself a common name, particularly for slaves, meaning good or useful. Some scholars believe it just as likely that this passage is not a spelling error and does not refer to Jesus or Christians. [50]
Because these events took place around 20 years after Jesus' death, the passage most likely is not referring to the person Jesus, although it could be referencing Christians, whom Suetonius also mentioned in regards to Nero and the fire of Rome. [51] As such, this passage offers little information about Jesus [52] , but may provide an alternative epitaph used in speaking about him. [citation needed] "Chrestos" is utilized in the Bible referencing the Lord, "if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious [Gk. crestos]" (1 Pet. 2:3, NKJV).
[edit] Pliny the Younger
Pliny the Younger, the provincial governor of Pontus and Bithynia, wrote to Emperor Trajanc. 112 concerning how to deal with Christians, who refused to worship the emperor, and instead worshiped "Christus". The name "Jesus" is not used.
Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ — none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do — these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.

They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food—but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. [53]
[edit] Others
Thallus, whose identity is difficult to determine, is known to have written a history from the Trojan War to his own time, which was sometime in the first or early second century. His work has been lost. In discussing Jesus' crucifixion and subsequent darkness, Julius Africanus, writing c. 221, referenced the lost work of Thallus:
On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in his third book of History, calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun. [54]
Lucian, a second century Romano-Syrian satirist, who wrote in Greek, wrote:
The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day — the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account… You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. [55]
Celsus, though a late second-century critic of Christianity, accused Jesus of being a bastard child and a sorcerer; yet he never questions Jesus' historicity even though he hated Christianity and Jesus. [56] He is quoted as saying that Jesus was a "mere man". [57]
The Acts of Pilate is a lost text, purportedly an official document from Pilate reporting events in Judea to the Emperor Tiberius (thus, it would have been among the commentaii principis). It was mentioned by Justin Martyr, in his First Apology (c. 150) to Antoninus Pius, Marcus Aurelius, and Lucius Verus, who said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion, and some miracles, could be verified by referencing the official record, the "Acts of Pontius Pilate". [58] With the exception of Tertullian, no other writer is known to have mentioned the work, and Tertullian's reference says that Tiberius debated the details of Jesus' life before the Senate, an event that is almost universally considered absurd. [59] There is a later apocryphal text, undoubtedly fanciful, by the same name, and though it is generally thought to have been inspired by Justin's reference (and thus to post-date his Apology), it is possible that Justin actually mentioned this text, though that would give the work an unusually early date and therefore is not a straightforward identification. [60]
[edit] Jewish records
Main article: Yeshu
The TalmudSanhedrin 43a, which dates to the earliest period of composition (Tannaitic period) contains the following:
On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged. Forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried: "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover. [61]
The name Yeshu (???) uses the same letters as the abbreviation "Y.Sh.V." (????), which scribes use to stand for the longer phrase, "his name will be erased and its memory" (??? ??? ????? Yemakh Shmo V-zikhro), which signifies a Jew convicted of enticing to idolatry, whose name has been blotted out. [citation needed] Thus, this may be referring to somebody other than Jesus. [citation needed]

FORGED (!?!?) ORIGINS of the NEW TESTAMENT (!?!?)

VM44

The wanderer

Narkissos

smellsgood

hillary_step

sinis

[edit] Josephus

[edit] Tacitus

[edit] Suetonius

[edit] Pliny the Younger

[edit] Others

[edit] Jewish records

badboy

The wanderer

Qcmbr

Narkissos

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