FORGED (!?!?) ORIGINS of the NEW TESTAMENT (!?!?)

by Terry 91 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Terry

  The ideal Internet? One where we are not in the position where we are all 'informed up' with nowhere to go.....Well, you did ask!

  I'd say this. Cumulative knowledge is an engine which drives a society. Uninformed populations are vulnerable.

  In America we have vulnerability intellectually on in the lunatic fringe part of the parabola. The big hump in the middle is politely activist.

  When 9-11 and Hurricaine Katrina or Tsunami disaster occurs the response is magnificent because people are instantly informed and single minded.

  The political fallout spreads across the spectrum. (Always has and always will.)

  Important response is active response and each of us decides how far we participate.

  Jehovah's Witnesses, for example. In a disaster the JW's take care ONLY of other JW'S. That is a peculiar kind of charity. But, it does something (however miniscule) for somebody.

  Do we volunteer? Do we donate? Do we join a group? That is a persona decision and each of us at least have a choice. There is no ONE final true answer.

  The INTERNET is humanity. What is wrong (or right) is a human problem and not a technological one.
• 

  Terry

  There is so little that we can do to make any difference, and all we do is pass on such information in the hope that somehow, someone will change matters, which as we know are ordained at the hands of cynical politicians and the often black heart of social evolution.

  In one word: BONO!
• 

  Terry

  Do you agree with the definition of the word myth below. Imo the interpretation of the scientific facts of today may be/will be the myths of tomorrow.

  I'd go farther than that. We have self-myth, too.

  We make sense of what we KNOW by knowledge.

  We make sense of what we don't know by mythos.

  The most enlightened people straddle the two sides of that chasm.

  History is the river that runs through it.
• 

  hillary_step

  Terry,

  I probably have more in common with the cynical politician than I have with your Brave New World view of the Internet, as I believe that many people are best left in ignorance and actually function better that way, especially when they become informed of serious matters which they are unable to influence under any circumstances. They actually become intellectually vunerable when they are informed but with nowhere to go, and this is at the heart of my post on the matter.

  Volunteering, getting involved in political agitation is not really pertinent to my point, as what I am discussing is matters over which we become informed from every angle, but are unable to deal with emotionally and can actually cause a degree of frustration which impacts our day to day lives.

  Most of us will live and die in ignorance of most matters, so there is no noble reason to force information on ourselves. I think that I can make a philosophic point of the advantages of choosing ignorance as a path, when it is beyond our influence to change a matter.

  The INTERNET is humanity. What is wrong (or right) is a human problem and not a technological one.

  I am not sure that I totally agree with this statement. I believe that the technology that has made the Internet available often reflects a distorted view of humanity that actually influences humanity. For example, the Porn industry which has actually been at the cutting edge of internet technology from day one and has led to many of its positive technologies is a multi billion dollar industry. Its exposure on the Internet, which I have seen in a report as being 30% of internet traffic in 2001 does not automatically mean that 30% of the world population is viewing pornography, only that 30% of the Internet traffic is pornographic in nature. Technology in this instance allows a distorted view of humanity that generates its own set of problems. So Internet technology moulds humanity as much as humanity moulds internet techonology. If this were not so, marketing companies around the world would shut shop and go home - a very good idea imho.

  In one word: BONO!

  In suggesting that in order to make a difference to huge international political issues we must become a world famous, multi-millionaire, you actually make my point for me Terry.

  HS
• 

  Qcmbr

  Is it a forgery if the basic assumption of this thread is that no original (to be forged) ever existed? Isn't it a hoax? I guess you could contend that the original was the pagan traditions and that christian innovaters appropriated them...
  
  There was an intense amount of scrutiny applied by early church factions on religious writings claimed by rivals (similar to the criticism the Book of Mormon gets from other christian faiths) and also an introspective process that winnowed out much that was untrue (in their eyes.) Maybe we have to trust that they did as good a job as possible for the time. It is almost undoubtable that many of the church leaders at the time really did believe in truth, integrity and the punishment of hell for those who corrupted scripture and so it is unlikely that these early christians would wholesale accept a pure fabrication IMO.
  
  As regards the early legends that seem to be appropriated into christianity I'm surprised that there is little mention of the old testament itself which is replete with messianic references fulfilled by no one but Jesus. It seems just as probable (if not more so - since the hebrews practised a religion of books rather than simple oral traditions of most pagans) that the pagans borrowed many legends from them - clearly the hebrews borrowed from other religions with books (there are numerous borrowings from Egyptian mythology) so it wouldn't be surprising to have a two way process. Also if there is any truth in the garden of eden / flood stories they may well have been a common point of origin for these stories and prophecies - by the time you get to the 'fulfillment' of the prophecies it isn't fair to claim that a bastardised copy of the prophecy in another culture invalidates it elsewhere, in fact multiple copies of core beliefs re-inforce rather than weaken a subsequent record. The story of the 'wise men' itself indicates that another people somewhere were looking for and recognised the messianic signs.
  
  I'm inclined to believe that the NT had a very early origin, that it contains much that is spurious but far less is deliberate forgery (I see more obfuscation in an attempt to promote a brand of christinaity over another - trinity V adoptionism for example) and that while the four gospels have many conflicts in narrative we need to look for the corresponding parts of the story (that aren't of themselves scribal harmonisation attempts) in each gospel and then in the subsequent records of the NT to tease out likely truth. There is no doubt that Paul did much of what is recorded about him (see archaelogical records regarding stone inscriptions noting him), there is plenty of other historival reference to corroborate times, events and people mentioned in the NT (writings of Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny to mention a few) so at least a lot of the facts are true. The bits requiring faith though - by their nature - have no proof but that's the core of christianity - the faith bits - the resurrection, ascension, miracles and supernatural links to diety.
  
  It is fun to speculate though.
• 

  BluesBrother

  I think this guy had it about right.

  "The easiest thing of all is to DECEIVE one's self; for what a man wishes, he generally believes to be TRUE." Demosthenes

  Those who want the Bible to be untrue will latch onto any statement that seems to say that it is not true. Those determined to believe it will never be convinced by any argument against it , however reasoned .

  ces't la vie.
• 

  jwfacts

  Great thread, a bit like a medical soap opera with fact, fiction and conjecture with a dash of sarcasm.

  This is an intriguing subject. Can anyone point to articles that may accurately point to the formation of the NT, and the different books that were taken as inspired prior to being censured at the Council of Nicea?
• 

  Narkissos

  http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/NTcanon.html
• 

  bennyk

  Today, the Gospel of Luke is the longest of the canonical Gospels because it now includes "The Great Insertion", an extraordinary 15th-century addition totalling around 8,500 words (Luke 9:51-18:14).

  Rubbish. A quick look (or, if you prefer, a long one) at the critical apparatus of any Greek text of the book of Luke will easily belie the ridiculous claim above.
• 

  SixofNine

  Six, I must have written a lot of nonsense since I've been here, but I don't think "nothing is real" is part of it. At least I hope so.

  ooops... that snark was not meant for you. No, you've never said anything like "nothing is real". JT probably never really meant that either, but his words could be construed that way, especially when there is opportunity for humor ;)