I fear this is a lesson in futility.
One camp holds the Bible as the primary authority on chronology. The other holds secular sources as primary.
When confronted with data that conflicts with the status quo, a biblical chronologist will reject or attack the data while a secular chronologist will examine the data and revise if necessary. I believe this to be the fundamental difference.
Scholar will hold Biblical sources above all others, conflicting secular sources *must* be wrong to him. The rest of us will revise chronology if new evidence is found.
The simplest explanation of 607 BCE
by Doug Mason 116 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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mavie
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Lady Liberty
Scholar,
You wrote Jeffro:
Our dates are derived from a properly constituted Bible chronology and stand on their own merits. Many of these dates relate to events enshrined both in Bible history and prophecy which further demonstrates their validity. As you are now forced to concede that 1914 as a prophetic date did see its fulfillment with the outbreak of the Great War from June right through to October.
Are you kidding me?!!! Did you and I not just have this very conversation not two or three posts back, about Russell claiming 1799 was the begining of the Gentile times and that 1914 was to be the end of the world???!!! I challenge you to show us one document that shows they were predicting a war in 1914? Can you ???I can show you over and over they were predicting the end of the world!
You can write anything you want after the fact, which is what the Society has done. THey have "sanitized their past" in order to appear to have been predicting the world war all along. But what are the facts????
Another note for you to ponder: Do you recall what the original Watchtower was entitled?? Zion's Watchtower and Herald of Christ's Presence!!!!
I am sure you can see just from this that Russell and his followers already believed 1799 was significant, and that is when Christ began ruling. NOT 1914! The first Zions Watchtower and Herald of Christs Presence was printed on July 1, 1879!
Again either you are delibertatly trying to decieve ones on this forum or you sadly have not researched enough to get your facts straight!
L.L.
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Lady Liberty
Scholar,
You wrote:
It is you who have manipulated matters regarding Grayson's material. The Society has simply quoted the source, given the appropriate reference and then inserted by means of brackets a date. This is not deceit as you allege but simply the employment of academic convention. If you have a problem with this then write to the Society about it for it is their business, their Style Manual or others that is used. I am not responsible for their writing style so if you have a pwoblem go to the source and not to me.
Again you make a mountain out of a molehill and you show a hatred of 607 because of pride. Jehovah reveals his truth to the humble ones not the proud and arrogant ones. Read God's Word daily and seek the truth!!
How have I manipulated Graysons material? By exploting the Watchtowers deliberate attempt to hide the facts?? Let me ask you this.. Would you have ever checked out the honesty of those so called "brackets"??? No?? Neither would I have, or any other loyal JW! We believed whole heartedly without a shadow of DOUBT...isn't that true?? The fact remains that if they had the truth there would be no need to lie! The intent was to deliberatly DECIEVE.
It is obvious by your sharp reply, that you art just embarressed that I pointed out this deception, and you have nothing to say for it except.."I'm not responsible"!! Ahh..but you are! Before God. You are responsible to teach the truth, and that is where we differ. I am afraid that Mauvie is right in that this is a futal discussion, and I have only entertained you because others are lurking who are desperatly trying to get the "facts" as I once was!
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/109978/1.ashx
If you ever read my first topic, my introduction to the forum you would see I was completely happy in my little JW world! I had no hatred of 607, infact I would have died believing it to be truth! However, after many sleepless nights and long researched filled days, I finally had to do one of two things. That was to blindly accept what ever I was told, or to diligently pray and trust Jehovah that he would show me what was truth, no matter what it was. But it took me along time to get brave enough to dare reach outside the Watchtower! Just remember the "truth" is 100% true. And sadley and unfortunately, upon deep research, this is not what we have found in the Watchtower.
I am now going to bow out of this thread, as your hard headedness, arrogance and haughtiness is apparent to all, it reminds me too much of the Pharasis, and I have no use for it!
Good Day!
L.L.
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Jeffro
Our teachings are in fact Bible based as you well know and this is proved by reading our publications. If you insult our teachings then you insult the Bible and its Author, Jehovah God.
Your claim is flawed. If someone insults the beliefs of fundamentalist Islam, it does not mean that they are saying the Koran is flawed. Stop imagining that your religion is tantamount to God. (Ever been immunized? Surely you would agree that would be an insult to God based on your esteemed publications of the past.)
Our dates are derived from a properly constituted Bible chronology and stand on their own merits. Many of these dates relate to events enshrined both in Bible history and prophecy which further demonstrates their validity. As you are now forced to concede that 1914 as a prophetic date did see its fulfillment with the outbreak of the Great War from June right through to October.
Indicate one event that is verifiably known to have occurred on time and as prophesied by the WTS's teachings. I am forced to admit nothing about 1914. They said something would happen in October, and it didn't. It is 'fortunate' that anything happened by coincidence in the same year at all, so the cronies could misdirect attention to a broader scale. Otherwise your flimsy religion would no longer exist at all.
The margin of error of twenty years located within NB chronology is proved by the presence of the 'seventy year' period which is the most important event in both NB history and Judean history. You ignore this event at your own peril. The so-called synchronization of Egyptian chronology with that of NB chronology also requires interpretation but such reconciliation raises many problems. This chronology and history also does not factor in the seventy years nor does ity factor in the foretold 'forty year' desolation under Nebuchadnezzer. No comfort here my boy!
Indicate one of those supposed problems (other than those introduced by your questionable interpretation). Given that if your interpretation is correct, then all other events in history should be able to be placed on a compatible timeline, without a suspicious gap occurring in the same place in entirely separate histories of different nations. (Yeah, that's a coincidence you're willing to accept, but you can't accept that Jonsson and I both independently worked out that 2 + 2 = 4. LOL)
The twenty year gap exists not because of any supposed flaws in our interpretation but simply a recognition of what the Bible actually says in the text, i.e. seventy years, a period of desolation-exile-servitude. You have a biiigg pwoblem.
Indicate where the bible mentions 70 years of exile.
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Jeffro
Lady Liberty
I have made such a chart. Doesn't help 'scholar' much though sorry. -
Jeffro
Mavie:
I fear this is a lesson in futility.
Yes, dealing with those such as scholar is futile, and it is largely for the benefit of those lurkers who are helped to see through the WTS's lies that I bother dealing with him.
One camp holds the Bible as the primary authority on chronology. The other holds secular sources as primary.
When confronted with data that conflicts with the status quo, a biblical chronologist will reject or attack the data while a secular chronologist will examine the data and revise if necessary. I believe this to be the fundamental difference.The bible is not the problem. I have previously provided a model that completely harmonizes all bible references to the Neo-Babylonian period with known secular history. The problem is the WTS's flawed interpretations, which contradict even the bible.
Scholar will hold Biblical sources above all others, conflicting secular sources *must* be wrong to him. The rest of us will revise chronology if new evidence is found.
'scholar' holds the WTS above all else, with a thin guise of upholding the bible. In the face of clear and direct scriptures such as Jeremiah 25:11, 'scholar' and those like him do not uphold the bible at all, but defers to WTS lies.
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scholar
mavie
Post 562
The fundamental difference between WT chronologists and secular chronologists is that the former give prioroty to the Bible as the innspired Word of God whereas the latter allow higher criticism to put the Bible aside and pay 'lip service' to its testimony. There will always be a conflict between secular records and the Bible record so one must choose which record is the most reliable and accurate especially when it comes to history and chronology.
Celebrated WT scholars as with the rest of the scholarly community are interested in the progress of knowledge particularly in relation to the Bible and as new research comes to light which causes adjustments or confirmation of current practice then such research is utilized for the benefit of all peoples. Over many decades WT scholars have found it necessary to adjucst or 'fine-tune their chronology and this has also been the case with other chronologists. In short, the only difference between chronologists is the attitude to the Bible.
scholar JW
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nvrgnbk
Scholar, what happens when nothing "happens"?
Does the chronology get tweaked then?
Used to believe like you,
nvrgnbk
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scholar
Lady Liberty
Post 1986
What those Bible Students were teaching was that 1914 would see the end of the Gentile Times and that has since been well established. It is true that such an understanding of matters also attracted certain speculations about the significance of that year that in fact did not materialize such as the end of the world.How one views such matters in the light of history and Bible prophecy is a matter of personal faith and choice and I do not believe that unfulfilled expectations are an error or failure but rather are expressions of faith and hope in God's promises for His people and mankind.
It is not a matter of decieit or 'sanitization' as these are the traits of apostates who have no interest in God;s purposes or promises for the future. Their only agenda is to ridicule and destroy people's faith in the KINGDOM. Our history or Christian heritage is there for all to see, read and research so there is no need to hide anything, mistakes or errors are part of imperfect people and an imperfect Church but the Lord has chosen imperfect, humble ones to do His will during these last days, the time of the Great Harvest.
When you have a good news, gospel or mission then you can criticize. If you are truly a Christian then how are you carrying out the Great Commission?
scholar JW
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scholar
Lady Liberty
Post 1987
The WT writers have simply inserted a date by means of a bracket to alert the reader to the correct date. Simple as that. No deceit or trickery here except in your own mind.
If you are truly honest and really believed in your accusation of deceit then honesty and integrity would have compelled you to put this matter to the Society for an explanation. Your refusal to do proves that you lack integrity. Good riddance !!!
scholar JW