A PUZZLING QUESTION...????...????...????

by Terry 110 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Shawn10538

Amen bro.
writetoknow

If God has any rights or standards and really does have a kingdom/government. If He is the creator of mankind and never created man to live outside His government (from heaven not earth) then the process of atonment is simple.
Government have laws the laws are not at the whim of every personal emotions or debate that people can conjure up because they don't agree. (The history of mans government will testify to this fact).
God set the rule of law that anyone violating His rules is called sin. Sin according to God equals death. If there is no other message that is clear throughout his word this one certainly is. No government hands out pardons like candy. There is a number of standards that have to be meant legally for the average person to get a pardon (unless you work for the top man) it is very rare toget a pardon.
When a government say you want your record clean and to be restored to the full privileges of citzenship in the government. One knows that legal requirment have to be meant. Those requirments are not forced they are a privilege that should be respected.
God satified His legal requirments as discussed on this thread in a gift to mankind through His son's blood. Rather one likes those requirments or not is not important those are the rules if one doesn't obey the rules does not diminish the rule of law. Moreover, it does not change the government or does it require the king of that govenment to make people into His subjects through coercion
It simply leaves away open for salvation from the death pentalty. For that reason God gave His people the Law to express in no uncertain terms that no man born of sin could live perfectly under the His Law without pardon(s) yearly and quartly.
Some wanting to prove themselves righteous by their own right-ness rather then the Kings Law stated we don't murder. Christ say if you hate a person in your heart you have murdered. We don't commit adultry. Christ said if you look at a woman with passion you have commited adultry.
If you cannot live up to the Law without pardon(s) then how will you live up the perfect Law of Love?
So does a person have a free will to remain in death if they choose not to use the pardon process. Billions of people have come and gone since the pardon was made into God's law. Did God force any of them to take the pardon? Can a person force another person to unwilling take the pardon?
Thats the point Christ showed the law lovers that God reads the heart not the law and there was no fooling him by legal arguments. And your right God has to be appeased because although we think we are alive were aren't according to God's standards of life that He created. So you lose nothing but this life which God views a death.
Life is not about law to God it's about love and willing association any violations of this law is not against man but God who created the law. Any forcing of His will on the human race is and would be resented and against God's law. Thats why Christain pray that God's well be done on earth. So if your dead in your sins and God see you as such what is destoyed? Nothing from nothing is nothing. Life starts for God at the accepting of the pardon it is completed in the gift of eternal life.
Because we live at a time in history where people openly disgree with the rule of law and demand their personal form of rightness does not change the law of the state or the government. If a person thinks it does in their imaginary world of what is fair. Spend some time in a court room when people trie to sprew their BS to the judge. The hardest person in the world learns a valuable lesson in humility they are put into check and they find out all their sick twisted thinking has been judged by a higher authority. And there is an order to law and it will be respected willing or unwillingly.
People vehemently disgree with the law they twist it hate it they no better then the founding fathers they just can't stand it. But when they break it there is still consequence and they won't be held in honor by the government for doing so.
Practioners of the law usually have the least respect for it. They some how confuse the knowledge they have of the law as a get out of jail free card. If they are smart enough to practice the law then they are smater then the creator of it.
What I see on this thread are people agruing law and questionings laws most ex-practioners of the law they are smater then the person that made the law. They live in a democracy and assume God government is for the people by the people.
They want to discredit God and make Him bow to there teachings. It called circular thinking there is no God but I blame God for all the evil religion has done. I don't want to be bother by religious thinking yet I post provacative statments about God to get a rise and then I am a victim of Christain narrow-minded views. I don't believe the bible but I want to quote other views of man and expect you to believe them over the bible.
God ways aren't fair, mans ways aren't fair, life isn't fair I am a victim of life. Hey welcome to reality! man spills lots of blood for his causes religious or otherwise. And there are billions of figures pointing from the human race at God - if one thinks God is going to role up into a fettle position because people don't like Him or his ways aren't fair. Wait until we enter into the real court room.
fifi40

Dear writetoknow
When something is invented and manufactured and made available to the general public and then proves to have a major life threatening fault; what happens?
When a food product is put onto supermarket shelves and is found to be contaminated, what happens?
I think you know the answer.........but just in case, it is common practice for the product to be recalled, so as not put innocent people at risk.
What you appear to have overlooked in Terry's reply and left out of your argument is the fact that not only was Adam punished for his sin but all his descendants were too.
Why didnt he do product recall.........and fix the fault?
Why didnt he out Satan and all those little demons who had chosen to follow him?
Why oh why did he allow for this huge experiment, to see which of this imperfect beings he had created, who would be subjected to all sorts of horrendous experience would remain faithful and praise him despite the vast confusion of trying to choose the correct belief to have about him?
At least with mankinds laws and legal systems, which you readily use to illustrate Gods way of governing, the buck stops with the person committing the crime.
So whilst it is possible to admire your defence of your God..........I find it easier to put the blame for mankinds problems firmly at mankinds door.......and leave whichever God a person chooses to follow out of the equation.
writetoknow

I think He should created robbots and a superior race! That way no one would have to deal with right and wrong choice and free will - that would have solved the problem. I think he should have never allowed people to sin in the first place how unrighteous of God. And I think all loving parent have the same obligation if a child wants to choose a wrong course - kill them before the get a chance.
And since He has the power why not build concetration camps for those that disagree. In fact send one of those angle down here on earth make everyone bow down to God and everytime someone has a doubt the angle could kill them or explain why God ways are right. Cut of the air, block out the sun stop the experiment for god sakes.
I agree don't give man a chance to experiment with governing his life what issues could be involved with that nonsence? Don't let them think about it kill them outlaw them jail them so no one can recall God.
Wow where would I have gotten such a novel idea comparing mans governemt to God's governemt? Jee I must be really enlighten that never been done before. Shame on me for thinking such uneducated things. God couldn't have any laws or rules why would He want that? And if He created mankind He must of done so - so He could be a slave to them.
I forgot for all you peope worshipping God that He has been outdate and replace recalled the product will have to go on the black market if you wants some. Any body standing up and saying I am a Christain is now outdated - worshiping God is dangerous to your health. All Christain have now been declared evil for sharing their teachings. Drop your bibles and back away from your churches your places of worship are the worst product on earth.
Adam sin its God's fault, Adam chose to sin its God fault, Adam died spiritually on that day its God's fault, God let him physcially live for almost a thousand years its God's fault. God made a law He must be evil. God said "no" He is wicked. God should have created robbots He didn't He's outdated.
I forgot anyone that is educated understand you can believe in anything but the God of Christainity that's like old science it has been disappoved according to the smart people of this world. And of course who would want to be consider a fool for believing in oh how I hate the word Christ.
God is nothing more then a product wrap up packaged and sold to the massive. All these stupid massive that weren't educated until our most enlighten generation what were they thinking.
LtCmd.Lore

I think He should created robbots and a superior race! That way no one would have to deal with right and wrong choice and free will - that would have solved the problem.
Yes it would have. Is that a problem?
Another option would be to create humans who don't WANT to do wrong. Personally, I don't want to eat poop, and I don't feel as if my free will has been violated by the lack of that want. So if I didn't WANT to sin, then I wouldn't view that as an infringement on my free will either!
Another option would be to make it impossible for humans to do evil, even if they want to. I want to fly, but it's not an infringement on my free will that I can't.
Here's a question for you though: Does God have free will?
I think he should have never allowed people to sin in the first place how unrighteous of God. And I think all loving parent have the same obligation if a child wants to choose a wrong course - kill them before the get a chance.
"Billy don't touch the stove!!! Or I'll kill you!!!"
*Billy touches stove*
"All right, that's it, I'm gonna kill you, but not until you grow up and have children. That way I can kill them as well."
Yeah, that's an ideal parent for you.
Why do you leave out the important option? You say, either he could kill him before he sins, or kill him after he sins. Why can't he prevent him from sinning? Or simply not kill him at all? Any parent who kills their child for ANY reason, is psychotic and would be arrested. (Even if the parent warned their child first... yep, there's no law stating that it's OK to kill your kid if he was given prior warning.)
And since He has the power why not build concetration camps for those that disagree. In fact send one of those angle down here on earth make everyone bow down to God and everytime someone has a doubt the angle could kill them or explain why God ways are right. Cut of the air, block out the sun stop the experiment for god sakes.
Isn't that exactly what most religions think god is going to do someday?
Paradise earth = a place where everyone worships god all day, and if they have any doubts they are executed to keep the order.
Heaven = a place that people go to worship god all day, and if they have any doubts they are sent to hell.
Eden = a place where people used to worship god all day, until they rebelled and then they where executed.
I agree don't give man a chance to experiment with governing his life what issues could be involved with that nonsence? Don't let them think about it kill them outlaw them jail them so no one can recall God.
Adam sin its God's fault, Adam chose to sin its God fault, Adam died spiritually on that day its God's fault, God let him physcially live for almost a thousand years its God's fault. God made a law He must be evil. God said "no" He is wicked. God should have created robbots He didn't He's outdated.
Hitler made laws too He must be evil. It's not the fact that he made laws, it's the fact that the laws where unjust. Eating a fruit is about on the same level as a parking ticket. Any government that executes people and their children for a parking ticket or for stealing from the produce department is completely unjust and also insane.
Why do you keep bringing up robots? What's wrong with god creating robots instead of humans? Sure I like my free will, but that free will has caused a lot of problems. The whole POINT of religion is to go AGAINST your free will and do what god says instead, so if you can't act on your free will, then what's the point?
I forgot anyone that is educated understand you can believe in anything but the God of Christainity that's like old science it has been disappoved according to the smart people of this world. And of course who would want to be consider a fool for believing in oh how I hate the word Christ.
Well acctually I like Christ, he was cool. It's Yahweh I have a problem with. If people could totally ditch that tribal god and stick with the New Testament god we'd probably be in good shape.
God is nothing more then a product wrap up packaged and sold to the massive. All these stupid massive that weren't educated until our most enlighten generation what were they thinking.
I'm not even going to comment on that...
Okay nevermind I will: You seem to have a perverted view of atheists. All of your arguments are directed against the strawman 'Angry Atheist' that your religious leaders have led you to believe in. That's not who you're talking too...
I, a real atheist, say: Believe whatever you want, but if you insult me, I'll correct you. If you blow up towers, I'll bash you. If you tell me I'm going to hell, then I'll tell you where you can stick your beliefs. If you try to tell me that everything would be better if we all believed in Yahweh, I'll explain why that doesn't work.
If you're polite, I'll be polite. If you get snooty, I'll probably still be polite. But all in all, your beliefs don't bother me until you start rubbing them in my face or using them as an excuse to do evil.
Did you notice what just happened? You had a discussion with atheists, and none of them called you stupid or insulted you... That doesn't sound right though, because you believe in "The Angry Atheist". Angry Atheist should have insulted you by now!, but he didn't!! So you insulted yourself, claiming that's what the atheists believe instead.
Well have fun with that! If you want to talk to a REAL atheist though, we're here.
Lore
writetoknow

Yes it would have. Is that a problem?
Another option would be to create humans who don't WANT to do wrong. Personally, I don't want to eat poop, and I don't feel as if my free will has been violated by the lack of that want. So if I didn't WANT to sin, then I wouldn't view that as an infringement on my free will either!
Another option would be to make it impossible for humans to do evil, even if they want to. I want to fly, but it's not an infringement on my free will that I can't.
Here's a question for you though: Does God have free will?
I've known people in mental insitution that ate poop it a matter of taste - so do you have a problem with that?
So is the person that eats poop free will violated when doctors prevent them for eating poop? So who says what free will is? So a person that is mentally ill that wants to eat poop should his free will be infringed upon if society say that its not acceptable? So its a matter of desire that defined free will? So if you have self-control do you have free will? Or if you uses your self-control do you have free will?
Commenting on something that you've have never been without is like stating I know how a dog feels the discussion ifs - is rather strange when no one can actually state what it would be like or how they would be if they didn't have free will.
So perhaps free will is a matter of laws and standards and rules that is accepted by society. So did God create man with free will? Did they lose that free will when they sinned? Or did they then know what God's knows good and what is bad?
So it a matter of who you consider God as to how you excerise that free will. If you don't believe in God then you listen to someone will or you couldn't live within society. Or free will isn't really a free will at all it is the choice to obey or disobey the rules of society.
You chose to declare Gods way as not real and your ways as real I chose not to do that. I think God know best and I appreciate His explaination of why He let people go on with living after they sinned. So according to your beliefs God is wrong. That's the age old story of the human race that your choice.
"Billy don't touch the stove!!! Or I'll kill you!!!"
*Billy touches stove*
"All right, that's it, I'm gonna kill you, but not until you grow up and have children. That way I can kill them as well."
Yeah, that's an ideal parent for you.
Why do you leave out the important option? You say, either he could kill him before he sins, or kill him after he sins. Why can't he prevent him from sinning? Or simply not kill him at all? Any parent who kills their child for ANY reason, is psychotic and would be arrested. (Even if the parent warned their child first... yep, there's no law stating that it's OK to kill your kid if he was given prior warning.)
I never stated that's the way God thinks that is your thinking of God's. If God is so eager to kill the human race then certainly he could create another and kill all of them and do it over and over again.
I think He stated He wanted "all" to be saved - and that He is patient that none should be destroyed. Well the government excute people all the time are they being cruel for allowing people children to continue to grow up and have families with the hope they will not repeat the misstake of their parents?
Past governments or tribes killed everyone and it still happen today in some places count your blessings you have the rights you do. Given by founding fathers that used God's law to create the greatest document written by man to date the consitution
Well there are no laws within our limited society history to kill children that disobey but in many society of the past it wasn't seen as a crime to excute rebilious children or sacarfice them to god's. One might humble themselve and realize we aren't the only group of people that ever lived.
Isn't that exactly what most religions think god is going to do someday?
Paradise earth = a place where everyone worships god all day, and if they have any doubts they are executed to keep the order.
Heaven = a place that people go to worship god all day, and if they have any doubts they are sent to hell.
Eden = a place where people used to worship god all day, until they rebelled and then they where executed.
No actually most Christain religion do not believe in a paradise earth. Most people that love God and Christ do not find His rules oppressive they are thankful for them and long to live in perfect harmony with them.
And no they don't think God is looking for reasons to destroy them if they disobey His rules and they have thousand of years of man governing his life to show God must have some patient even after killing His belove Son. Know they trust that God will keep His promise if they put faith in the blood of Christ He will not destroy them for sin. And they actually pray for their enemies.
Furthermore, government killing many of his people for thousands of years show God must have some self-control. Moreover, if that was true then he kill both of us for this discussion.
Hitler made laws too He must be evil. It's not the fact that he made laws, it's the fact that the laws where unjust. Eating a fruit is about on the same level as a parking ticket. Any government that executes people and their children for a parking ticket or for stealing from the produce department is completely unjust and also insane.
Why do you keep bringing up robots? What's wrong with god creating robots instead of humans? Sure I like my free will, but that free will has caused a lot of problems. The whole POINT of religion is to go AGAINST your free will and do what god says instead, so if you can't act on your free will, then what's the point?
Once again it depends on where your at in history - people were kill for disagreeing with kings and dictators.
So if one chooses to shoot a drug in their arm that cause death does that mean a parent is evil because they don't contol their person and take the needle out of an adult childs arm? Are they an adult or a minor child do they have the right to destroy their life or not? Well we live in a polictically correct society have you dealt with drug addicts that want to continual using drugs? Even after intervention most continue to use,
No parent can restore life after death, but God can and still helps the person in ways we don't know or understand. No one can state biblical how many of the people that die in the past are living with God right now. Maybe Satan gets a second chances and the most evil people that ever lived. Perhaps all will be restored to life - can you say that not true?
Hilter is really a bad example but your trying to make a point Hilter didn't need a reason to have some one killed. And probably he made some good laws and bad laws. God does not make bad laws only good laws it is man application of those laws that are the problem.
I'm not even going to comment on that...
Okay nevermind I will: You seem to have a perverted view of atheists. All of your arguments are directed against the strawman 'Angry Atheist' that your religious leaders have led you to believe in. That's not who you're talking too...
I, a real atheist, say: Believe whatever you want, but if you insult me, I'll correct you. If you blow up towers, I'll bash you. If you tell me I'm going to hell, then I'll tell you where you can stick your beliefs. If you try to tell me that everything would be better if we all believed in Yahweh, I'll explain why that doesn't work.
If you're polite, I'll be polite. If you get snooty, I'll probably still be polite. But all in all, your beliefs don't bother me until you start rubbing them in my face or using them as an excuse to do evil.
Did you notice what just happened? You had a discussion with atheists, and none of them called you stupid or insulted you... That doesn't sound right though, because you believe in "The Angry Atheist". Angry Atheist should have insulted you by now!, but he didn't!! So you insulted yourself, claiming that's what the atheists believe instead.
Well have fun with that! If you want to talk to a REAL atheist though, we're here.
Yes you will bash me and correct me. That is a fact, unforunately I have friends that are "real atheists" and they like bashing me also so your in good company. So you belive in the Golden Rule if I am polite then you'll be polite but that wasn't the tone of this thread. So the rule is oneside it applies only to atheists?
Know I don't believe in the "Angry Atheist" I've experience it through out my life on all levels. My point was not about Atheist or Pangans or any group in this thread is was about people blaming God for shedding blood. I also like you believe rules apply to the goose and gender not just the goose. And I have friend that are REAL Atheist and they do get angry when someone talks about God and His words as it true of Christian I know when Atheist talk about their beliefs.
The the buzz started just like you got involved. I stated that people will never agree on anything. I stated people will never not disagree with God. I stated there enough blood to go around for everyone.
I also stated that people who don't believe God is reals - why should it bother them whatever he does. I also state because Pagans believe the bible was stolen from them then who are the argry with for writting the bible?
If you claim I have no authority to quote God because according to your beliefs He does not exist. I am certainly not going to take some mans beliefs seriously. I lived long enough to see what people will do and have done to each other over beliefs manufactor by man.
Moreover, the thread was started to provoke a reaction from someone and this is a site that has a lot of people on it that our ex JW's so everyone knows what's happening becaues it happens all the time. I can handle it and I am sure you can to.
Insomniac

Terry-
Pouty and wounded? Try disgusted and annoyed.
Yes, my faith is within me, and you can't touch it. You can attempt to hurt my sense of self worth by taking a mocking, condescending tone with me when I ask you nicely to stop insulting my religion. However, my self worth is another thing that you are unable to touch. I wonder what's next, though; do you plan on making fun of my ethnic group or my gender?
Just because you work with Pagans, Witches, and Wiccans, and have flipped through some books while on break, does not make you an authority on their habits, beliefs, or principals; neither does it give you a free pass on rudeness. My business partner is African-American, and I've read Roots, but that still doesn't give me the right to use the N-word.
You asked me, why aren't you enough? When did I say I wasn't? Why do you presume to know exactly what role my religion plays in my life? What makes you think there's some sort of void I'm trying to fill? You can't know, because I haven't chosen to discuss my inner life with you; you'd do well to stop speculating on my private thoughts.
Terry

Terry-
Pouty and wounded? Try disgusted and annoyed.
Yes, my faith is within me, and you can't touch it. You can attempt to hurt my sense of self worth by taking a mocking, condescending tone with me when I ask you nicely to stop insulting my religion. However, my self worth is another thing that you are unable to touch. I wonder what's next, though; do you plan on making fun of my ethnic group or my gender?
Just because you work with Pagans, Witches, and Wiccans, and have flipped through some books while on break, does not make you an authority on their habits, beliefs, or principals; neither does it give you a free pass on rudeness. My business partner is African-American, and I've read Roots, but that still doesn't give me the right to use the N-word.
You asked me, why aren't you enough? When did I say I wasn't? Why do you presume to know exactly what role my religion plays in my life? What makes you think there's some sort of void I'm trying to fill? You can't know, because I haven't chosen to discuss my inner life with you; you'd do well to stop speculating on my private thoughts.
You are 38 years old, for crying out loud!
Somebody mentions "pagan" and you go all soggy. Surely you are old enough to deal with differences of opinion!
I've not taken a condescending tone with you. Would you like me to so you can see the difference? I suspect not.
I'm conversant with pagans. That was my point. I'm not ignorant entirely of how they view themselves and their religion. I know just enough to be able to dismiss their beliefs without denigrating them as persons.
What would the N-word equivalent be for Pagans, by the way? I doubt I used it, whatever it is.
Becoming hysterical when your beliefs are viewed as nonsense is just part and parcel of choosing such beliefs as are compatible with nonsense.
Worship trees if you like. I won't stop you. Elevate nature to a level which requires worship. I shall not interfere. Invoke mystical charms and cook up a batch of yak gonads and newt's eye if it eases your pain. But, don't expect me to nod in respectful silence about it.
I think all religious ideas are mind poop; not yoursin particular.
I'm sure you are a perfectly lovely person outside of the belief system you find so fascinating.
I think astrology is ridiculous too. My list of things inane is longer than a 6 year old's list of Santa gifts. I won't bore you with them.
Suffice it to say, I've nothing against YOU. If I didn't like you I guarantee you'd know it rather than having to parse my prose to divine it!
Just ignore my pagan comments if it disturbs you or speak up and defend them with REASONS instead of sulky protestations.
Cheers!
Tatiana

I work with a group of Pagan, Wiccans, and Witches, believe it or not!
I also work in the Metaphysics section of a bookstore. I regularly shelve thousands of books about these subjects and I read through them casually on my break.
Belief and Faith can have ANY object. But, it all devolves down to one question:
WHY AREN'T YOU ENOUGH? Why do you need outside agency to empower you?
Christian, Wiccan, Jew, Pagan, whatever-----see themselves as mere nothings until the empowerment from "other" lifts them up and puts starch in their collar.
There is always an incantation (prayer), ritual, process or group to busy one's self with!
What spell has a witch ever cast that amounted to gnat spit? What prayer ever stirred a breeze?
Sacrifices, spells, prayers just keep you busy when you could be doing something actually useful.
I'm not picking on YOU. I'm just responding to the drone of defense which props up process.
This is very interesting, and something I have thought of also. I started a thread about having no religion, and this takes it all a big step further. Feeds into the question above....Why do you need outside agency to empower you?
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/135040/1.ashx
Say there was no religion. Say the Bible was never written. Say everyone on Earth, our home, believed in some power that created us, but were not afraid of that "power/being." Say we all knew that this was our home and we had to take care of it or else.

Say that no one believed that this "being" was going to swoop down and take care of all of our problems. That we knew the being created us, but this being told us we were on our own and we'd better make the best of it. There would be no "saving" us from ourselves. There would be no destruction of anyone. Good or bad. No promise of some obscure afterlife/virgins/heaven/hell/paradise earth.

Just "us." And the power that created us...and we knew we had to make our own bed.

Think about it. We sit here hoping for something "better" that religion has promised us. We sit here believing that a "being" is going to take away all of our problems. Some say they don't believe in giving to charity, because in time a "being" will take away all hunger, pain, and death. In the meantime, millions of people in our home starve and die.

Some say they don't get involved in politics because a "being" is going to destroy it all anyway, so why bother. So, we do nothing to change it. We sit here and hate our fellow man and woman because they don't go to the same "building" as we do to pray to said "being." Each one telling the other they will be destroyed by said "being."

We get complacent. We wait. For what? Something better from someone in the sky, when we could make it better ourselves. If there was no "hope" of some other "existence" in some invisible place or some far off utopian paradise, wouldn't we try so much harder to make THIS time and place as best as possible? Wouldn't we take care of each other? And not wait for someone else to do it?
If we had no false hope of any "being" running to our rescue, and we didn't sit around on our asses waiting for an invisible "being" to take care of us, wouldn't this world we live in NOW be a better place?

I truly believe it would be. I believe humans have the capacity to love beyond anything else. I believe if not for religion and false hope we would be able to bring out all the best in ourselves and truly love each other.
Am I wrong?
I will have to ponder all this for a while....
Tatiana

As for free will....I have always believed there is none. True free will means that you are free to decide one way or another, or maybe the third way....with NO PUNISHMENT. No fear of death. No consequence. Once those things are added to the equation, free will ceases to exist.
As for me...would I have gladly not had free will, as defined by Christians, etc., if it meant I would not know evil, and man and womankind would not have had to suffer for thousands of years... and evil never existed? You damn skippy. Free will is highly overrated.

A PUZZLING QUESTION...????...????...????

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