DOES FORGIVENESS MAKE ANY SENSE?

by Terry 46 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Terry

  What you reward you tend to get more of.

  What you punish tends to atrophy.

  The balance between a good act and a bad one consists of the consequences.

  Society has found many ways to treat bad behavior. The worst being imprisonment and execution (if not torture) for high crimes.

  But, there is a core philosophy among altruists and Christians of a certain stripe who advocate FORGIVENESS.

  So, we ask the question : DOES FORGIVENESS MAKE ANY SENSE?

  When we do harm we cause an effect.

  The effect injures others or their property.

  To restore what is harmed a system of Justice has developed to deal with administering the pressure toward restoration (when possible).

  Fines, community service, reparation for damages all constitute that restoration process.

  Insurance companies act as brokers in the case of "accidental" causes and effects and their remedy.

  But, in the realm of RELIGION the principle of FORGIVENESS rears its ugly head!

  Where does FORGIVENESS add any benefit in restoring what is damaged, destroyed or injured? Does not Forgiveness consist of NOT HOLDING ACCOUNTABLE the person who causes injury????

  Or, let us ask a more specifically pointed question instead:

  ON WHAT FAIR BASIS OF JUSTICE CAN FORGIVENESS HAVE ANY MERIT?

  Usually, in the case of the courts, the question of "intentionality" enters the consideration.

  What the actual intention of the perpetrator was counterbalances the harm they did. Was the bad act witting or unwitting?

  In Theology all mankind is considered guility of sin and worthy of the ultimate penalty of DEATH.

  Yet, God offers FORGIVENESS on the basis of a peculiar sort of INJUSTICE: The death of an innocentin the place of a guilty party!

  All through mankind's history primitive and irrational people have offered innocent lives and other offerings to appease the wrath of deities who may have been offended by man's unwitting actions.

  This is a kind of cringing bribe.

  Buying off the deity by paying them "protection money" forms the basis for many religious acts.

  I ask, however, ON WHAT BASIS of JUSTICE can FORGIVENESS fit into any system of belief in any rational way?

  You break it; you buy it. That is the sign in the Pottery Barn. It holds customers responsible for their behavior; witting or unwitting.

  Please defend the FORGIVENESS principle in terms of what is just, fair, balanced and equitable. If you can.
• 

  fifi40

  Compassion and empathy allow for recognition that none are perfect..............so on a personal level forgivness towards others who have harmed us in some way is our own choice!
• 

  Terry

  Compassion and empathy allow for recognition that none are perfect..............so on a personal level forgivness towards others who have harmed us in some way is our own choice!

  Pavlov's dog.

  I do THIS and I get forgiveness. mMMMMM? I can get away with it!

  I do THIS and I am punished. mMMMM? I better not do it anymore.

  When we forgive/hold accountable the behavior of others we are giving a signal of learning to them.

  "This is how you can treat me".

  If you find yourself ill-treated you are dealing with somebody who has been forgiven alot!
• 

  fifi40

  Urmmmmm..........bit between the teeth

  Are you saying you wont forgive others for anything?????

  We are a little different to dogs.........I would quote your own words on what dogs are like........but I wont
• 

  Scully

  Forgiveness in the sense that religion teaches it creates the kind of emotionally unhealthy dynamic that Terry describes. You have the people who wreak havoc, cause harm to others and get away with it because religion requires victims to forgive the perpetrators.

  The ethical approach to forgiveness teaches that forgiveness is for the benefit of the victim, not the perpetrator. It is a step that acknowledges the damage that was done, and the promise to oneself to no longer be mired down in the emotional wreckage created by the harm that was done. It is a positive action that allows a victim to step out of the "victim" mindset and move into a "survivor" mindset, and even a "success story" mindset.

  It is not saying: I forgive you, so go ahead and abuse me again. No. It is saying: What you did to me was wrong and caused me harm in XYZ ways. I am not going to let that stop me from living my life or allow what you did to me to hold me back from my dreams and goals. Forgiveness is the choice I am making so that I can move on from the outcome you created by your action. I am not going to be a hostage to what you did to me in the past.
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  WTWizard

  This is one reason why I will not forgive God, Jehovah, the Watchtower Society, or anyone who has *$&%ed up my life volitionally and shows no intention on righting the wrong. To do so would only provide more impetus for God or the religions to do further damage. Particularly, I will never make any deals with any God, much less Jehovah, to undo any wrong they have volitionally and on an initiatory basis these have committed on me that would leave Him better off than He would have been had He just left things run their course.

  To forgive and to give God a better situation for merely undoing what He has done to me would only be an incentive for Him to do further damage or to redo the original damage, probably before the undo could take effect in an effort to extort even more out of me. Why stop at 10 hours of service in exchange for getting the opposite sex to take a liking to me (after God has initiated them not liking me in the first place), when He can re-initiate the original problem again before the undo can take effect to extort 20 hours of service out of me? And then He is going to re-initiate the same problem again, again before the "undo" can kick in, to extort another 20 or 30 hours of service (or more). The original problem is still there. The Almighty Thug is better off, after He initiated the original problem (for some, it can be health or money issues). You have just been robbed out of service time by the Almighty Thug. All in the name of forgiving Him.

  Forgiveness for someone who unknowingly made a stupid error against us is another matter. Usually this is not done on purpose. Everyone makes stupid mistakes. And usually, when that happens, the person who makes errors does not mean to hurt others. Usually, all it takes for such issues is to point out that there is a mistake, and it will be corrected. And there are some people that will learn that a course of conduct is inherently wrong and then stop doing it. Once that happens, there is little chance that the person will volitionally return to their former conduct. The prime example is that most of us made a choice to serve a cult, but without knowing it was a scam. Once we found out that it was a scam, we stopped preaching and attempted to right the wrong. In such instances, forgiving the error is appropriate.

  In short: To err is human, but it takes Jehovah God to really *$&% things up.
• 

  Sad emo

  Does not Forgiveness consist of NOT HOLDING ACCOUNTABLE the person who causes injury????

  Absolutely not Terry!! It is something which is offered - not dished out and I don't believe a wrongdoer can truly accept the offer unless they are aware that they've done something wrong, which deserves justice. And if there's an opportunity for reparation they would want to make it.

  Forgiveness does make sense in some cases and it doesn't necessarily mean that the wrongdoer gets away with it.

  Out of interest, I've been working through a lot of my past abuse. The way I see it, I can either let it go (ie forgive - but not forget - in a sense still holding my parents accountable for what they did) or I can keep the lid on it, remain angry at what they did to me, refuse to move on and let myself stew - occasionally taking it out on others around me. Which is better?

  I guess what I'm trying to say is that forgiveness is more a state of mind/attitude the wronged party takes on rather than letting the wrongdoer get away with what they did.
• 

  Terry

  Are you saying you wont forgive others for anything?????

  I will forgive somebody for something, but; it has to be based on justice. Not holding people accountable for deliberate acts of harm, cruelty, malfeasance, dishonesty is just asking for more of the same. It devalues the victim and makes a mockery of honesty and playing by the rules.

  What would forgiveness be based on which would make sense?

  1. Repair, restoration, an effort to mend, reparation, a fine, accepting blame, a pledge never to repeat the harm.

  2. A genuine recognition of the wrong and some meaningful offer of contrition beyond mere words.

  In other words, to forgive just to be nice is stupid.

  Murder, on the other hand, cannot be forgiven. The party who lost their life is the only one who could forgive, and; that just isn't possible!
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  Terry

  I guess what I'm trying to say is that forgiveness is more a state of mind/attitude the wronged party takes on rather than letting the wrongdoer get away with what they did.

  In other words: a square circle!
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  fifi40

  Ah....................well in that case I agree with you............I have never suggested forgiving to be nice...........that is a barking idea