Where's the Great Crowd?

by Mrs. Witness 48 Replies latest watchtower bible

Sarah Smiles

Revelation 5:10 NWT version (24 elders, 144,00) on the earth or over the earth?
10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
Revelation 5:10 (King James Version)
10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 5:10 (Wycliffe New Testament)
10 and madest us a kingdom, and priests to our God; and we shall reign on earth.

Revelation 5:10 (Young's Literal Translation)
10and didst make us to our God kings and priests, and we shall reign upon the earth.' At least it not over the earth.
Revelation 7:15 (King James Version)
Great Crowd in a heavenly temple
15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Revelation 7:15 (English Standard Version)
15"Therefore they are before the throne of God,
and ( A ) serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne ( B ) will shelter them with his presence.
NWT Great Crowd in his temple? Eathly or heavenly? YHWH temple?
15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them.
According to the WTBTS 24 elders are the 144,000 who will be up in heavens with Jesus and judging mankind.
Many bibles say on the earth!
Great Crowd should be down on the earth but it looks like they might be in (YHWH) temple unless you consider YHWH temple Bethel.
On the earth,over the earth!
In his temple? or in his earthly temple?
Mrs. Witness

Thanks everyone for your replies! (Especially you, Stealth!) I have a lot to read and digest before I broach this with hubby again!
JosephMalik

I would not agree with this, however, because the 1,440,000 (the actual number of the Bride class is 1,440,000, since the 10% root are natural Jews -- Isa. 6:13) become Christ's Bride.
JC,
What difference does it make if they are natural Jews or Jews and Gentiles mixed together? What difference does it mean if they are pictured as a Bride or not? Does any of this transport them to some unknown place and make them something other than human? No! This is simply a vision of better times to be found under better conditions than we have now. Nothing in all this violates root texts found in scripture.
JC said: Now the way the 1st resurrection works, is that it happens before Christ himself has his second coming.
Not according to scripture. The events take place at the same time notice:
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Now that is pretty fast and it happens as a single contiguous event. This will happen for everyone good or bad that is restored to life. We also have: 1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Now we learn that such dead in Christ shall rise first along with such living and not before as you teach. Why a distinction then when there was no such distinction made in 1 Cor 15:52? Because not everyone so resurrected at this time will be justified and considered as "having come to life." They must wait until the symbolic 1000 years ends and the final test is over. This is another Biblical teaching that many ignore. The doctrine of Justification, or are you saved as many shout? The rallying cry of many Baptists. For some this will take time. This is why Paul also said: 1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. A resurrection and then the putting down of all rule and authority and power. That is the plan of Salvation we should know like the back of our hand.
JC said: Those resurrected for the first resurrection are transplanted like seeds into the bodies of imperfect followers of Christ in the modern age.
Bunk. No nice way to put it.
JC said: 40And there are
heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort.
Paul is writing to refute what the Corinthians wrote to him first. And their letter contained false Jewish and Gentile beliefs like this one. He is kicking them and their teachings in the pants and on one notices? Most of 1 Cor. as Chapter 15 demonstrates is filled with such false doctrine which explains why he wrote the way he did. We do not become a new star or non-human when we die, something we still hear in modern times.
44 It is sown a
physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one.
And the spiritual body means what? Invisible? Non human? No! But immortal, a gift from God the very thing Paul is teaching here..
JC said: 54 But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: "Death is swallowed up forever."55"Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?"
The Immortality is still human. The incorruption is still human. The seed that made all this possible was human. The Death under discussion is human death. That is the point of Christ being raised from the dead. And that is the very reason the scriptures teach:
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Does the non-human Christ alone have immortality as seemingly taught here? No! Because in this same letter we learn that God has immortality as well. 1 Tim. 1:17. And there is no reason to think that the non-humans called angels are not immortal. They have been around a long time and are still here. But if we understand the verse in its proper context we learn that the still Human Christ alone only hath immortality. It is this immortality that we soon will have when He comes back in the clouds for the resurrection. And there are other such texts that teach: 2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: That is the truth we should be teaching. The teaching that humans will someday evolve to a higher level is taught in far eastern religions where they think that eventually they will reach a state of Nirvana. You will not find it in scripture.
Joseph
steve2

Thanks Stealth. Looking at the torturously ponderous expositions on cryptic Biblical passages, I can see why I could end up preferring the beach to the Bible.
JCanon

The teaching that humans will someday evolve to a higher level is taught in far eastern religions where they think that eventually they will reach a state of Nirvana. You will not find it in scripture.
Joseph
As I said, Joseph, when you have a scripture that compares a PHYSICAL body with a SPIRITUAL one, then you always have the option to interpret that literally. You don't wish to. That's your prerogative.
Christ returns to the earth for the second coming, serves for the 1000 years and throughout Judgment Day. But that's it. Then he goes back to his rightful place as Michael, the Archangel in Heaven. He's not leaving without his new Bride, who are "bought from the earth." Sorry.
JC
choosing life

I'm with Steve2 at the beach. Much more beautiful and relaxing. My mind hurts after reading just some of this post. Why does it all have to be so tedious and difficult?
Just let it be.
JosephMalik

JC
said:
Christ returns to the earth for the second coming, serves for the 1000 years and throughout Judgment Day. But that's it. Then he goes back to his rightful place as Michael, the Archangel in Heaven. He's not leaving without his new Bride, who are "bought from the earth." Sorry.

JC,

Wrong again. Why? Because: 1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. Christ does not take his Bride anywhere as it no longer belongs to Him. It is after all a human Bride
living here on earth just l ike He will be during the 1000 years. The Bride was bought from the earth for what reason? For life, not to be taken somewhere else as you teach. We know this because: 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? The dead were what? Human? Yes and so are the ones that rise that were so Baptized as shown. The dead rise and are not taken anywhere but offered to God. The word spiritual will not do it for you. Why? Because among it's many meanings it is also defined like this: 1) relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ 1a) that which possesses the nature of the rational soul. The Bible teaches human resurrection which is terrestial and gaining immortality, incorruption, glory, power, spiritual since it is a gift from God. nothing else. Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Only Christ who had a non-human seed in the first place could exist in both natures without contradiction. Sorry.
Joseph
steve2

Why does it all have to be so tedious and difficult?
Exactly! There's nothing quite so mind-numbing as two different sides, each one equally convinced its right and the other wrong, earnestly exploring the excruciating detail that "proves" its point of view. Deja vu my earlier life as a JW.
Will the rule be in Heaven? Will it be on earth and for how long? How many angels dancing on a pin-head? Duh, I'm not sure. However, what I was sure of as I waded through the earnest exposition was there really is a Hell. The pain! Help - get me to the beach right now....
Lady Liberty

Dear Sarah Smiles,
Thank you for that post, as I was recently looking for these verses that place the 144,000 on the earth and the great crowd in heaven!! What a hoot!! I wonder what a JW would say if you threw these scriptures at him?? Talk about confusing!!
Sincerely,
Lady Liberty
Lady Liberty

Dear Mrs. Witness, Amyfa, and Eliveleth,
WELCOME to the forum!!! We are happy to have you all here, and enjoy your comments!
Sincerely,
Lady Liberty

Where's the Great Crowd?

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