I shouldn't even be answering at this late hour... I didn't take notes while reading the several pages of posts, and too tired to give this the detailed scripture answers that it deserves, but oh well, I'm going off the top of my head because it is SO SAD at the TOTAL MASS CONFUSION going on here, when it seems so simple IF people will just get WT theology out of their heads and just START OVER from scratch... like newbie Eliveleth (sp?) said she did. Great answer, btw... she ASKED THE HOLY SPIRIT to show her, and HE DID! ;-) Amen sister!
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Following comments are in no specific order... and I'm going from memory of the prior thread pages... and these are how I have come to understand Revelation. Nobody has to agree, naturally.
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1. The great crowd is IN HEAVEN. It says so, sooo clearly, as was already pointed out by somebody with that long string of scriptures. Beautiful. So why fight it? TAKE THE WORD FOR WHAT IT SAYS. God never "acted out" allegorically but literally, so forget that WT lie. Take it LITERALLY.
2. The book of Revelation is CHRONOLOGICAL. Accept that and half the confusion is eliminated.
3. Revelation proceeds like so: It starts out with an OVERVIEW and then goes into detail. Then another OVERVIEW a few chapters later, and then more detail. Then another OVERVIEW a few chapters after that, and then more detail. etc. etc. Recognize that some chapters are an OVERVIEW of WHAT IS COMING down the pipes thereafter.
4. The LITTLE FLOCK are HEBREWS, or Jews as they are commonly called. The OTHER SHEEP are GENTILES. Easy, piece of cake.
5. The 144,000 are exactly what the WORD SAYS: HEBREWS from the tribes of Israel. They are virgin Jewish males who will engage in a massive "witnessing" campaign during the Tribulation period. They will be killed for their witnessing re: Jesus, but will immediately be resurrected to heaven where the "church-age saints" already are.
6. The "two witnesses" will also be literal Hebrew men, most likely Moses and Elijah (read the descriptions of the acts they perform during the trib, exactly as Moses did previously and also as Elijah did previously). Moses and Elijah also appeared w/Jesus at the Transfiguration. (Some think Enoch and Elijah, since neither of them ever "died" but were taken away to heaven supernaturally. But the descriptions of the acts the "two witnesses" perform during the Trib are an exact duplicate of what Moses and Elijah have done in the past. The Bible always interprets ITSELF. No WT mags needed. Just look anything up and where it occurred previously, etc.) -- BTW, the two witnesses will also be martyred and they will be "raptured" straight up to heaven after they are dead in the street for 3 days.
7. So during the Tribulation you have the 144,000 Hebrew virgin males witnessing, and the two witnesses, and the angel in midheaven. There also will be persons who come to faith during the Trib and these also may witness to those around them, but it will be very dangerous, as belief in Jesus will be totally outlawed. Most likely anyone who comes to faith during the Trib will be martyred, likely beheading for refusing the Mark of the Beast, etc.
8. Switching subjects: Confusion arises when OT scriptures are mixed in with NT. All OT verses applied/still apply to the HEBREWS ONLY and NOT JWs or any OTHER Christian denomination. And that includes the EARTHLY KINGDOM PROMISES, which are FIRST, for the Hebrews, and after the Lord returns, through them to the NATIONS that survive the Trib. God intended for Israel to be a LIGHT UNTO THE GENTILES and they will RESUME that role under the Kingdom.
9. The four GOSPELS were also spoken TO HEBREWS and did not apply to Gentiles at that time since the way had not yet been opened for them. Jesus himself said, He had come ONLY TO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, and he told his apostles to NOT GO INTO THE GENTILES NOR THE SAMARITANS but ONLY go to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. (The RISEN Lord -- AFTER He was back in Heaven -- commissioned Paul later down the road to take the Gospel to the GENTILES.)
10. Hence, all EARTHLY KINGDOM scriptures (promises and prophecies) spoken by Jesus in the four Gospels applies to the HEBREWS. It is THEIR EARTHLY KINGDOM.
11. Likewise, all EARTHLY KINGDOM scriptures (promises and prophecies) spoken by the LORD in the OT applies to the HEBREWS.
12. All HEAVENLY promises revealed to the Apostle Paul BY THE RISEN LORD after his ascension applies to the saints who are saved during the "church age," or "gentile age." The saints from the "church age" HAVE A HEAVENLY HOPE. This is part of the NINE "MYSTERIES" (or "sacred secrets" in NWT) which were given EXCLUSIVELY to the Apostle Paul and NOT any of the other apostles, and which Paul was to teach to the GENTILES. Of course Paul witnessed to his Jewish brethren incessantly, TO THE JEW FIRST and ALSO THE GREEK, so any Jews who come to faith in Messiah during the church age also have the HEAVENLY HOPE. But if any continue to reject Messiah, they will get to suffer through the Tribulation, as will all UNBELIEVING Gentiles.
13. A brief summary of the above:
* PAUL'S EPISTLES are for the CHURCH-AGE BELIEVERS, beginning to end.
* The OT scriptures were/are for the HEBREWS AS A NATION. ALL OT PROPHECIES concern the NATION of Israel, so don't try applying them to the church-age SAINTS. (of course, "principles" in any part of the Bible are beneficial for all things, as Paul said, but as for the OT PROPHECIES, they do NOT apply to the saints).
* The four GOSPELS, prophetically speaking, are for the HEBREW Nation also.
* The book of ACTS was the TRANSITION PERIOD.
* Revelation -- after about chapter 4 -- is for UNBELIEVING Hebrews AND Gentiles/Nations who have rejected the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior DURING THEIR LIFETIME and prior to commencement of the Tribulation. These will get to "stay right here on earth" during the Tribulation -- something NOBODY SHOULD SEEK OR DESIRE, CONTRARY TO WHAT THE WT TELLS YOU. I promise, YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE HERE DURING THE TRIB. Can these repent and be saved during the Trib? Yes, that's the whole idea -- through MUCH SUFFERING -- though most will NOT repent. Those who come to faith DURING the Trib and are killed during the Trib, if they 'remained faithful unto death' are immediately resurrected to heaven and become part of the GREAT CROWD as seen in Ch. 7, which is an OVERVIEW CHAPTER of THINGS TO COME (as described earlier).
14. The CHURCH-AGE BELIEVERS are NOT HERE on earth during the Trib. Paul clearly describes the "CATCHING AWAY" (harpazo) of the SAINTS to the CLOUDS, to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR, and so shall we always be with the Lord! While He remains in Heaven DURING the Trib, so do we likewise. When He returns in Rev. ch. 19, we return with Him, hence, we are always with Him.
Notice Paul wrote we will MEET the Lord IN THE AIR. It does NOT say we will meet up with Him DOWN HERE. Nor does it say (Thess. 4) that HE COMES ALL THE WAY DOWN to earth at THIS TIME, as He WILL DO in Rev. ch. 19 (see also Zech. 12 -- or is it 14 -- where he will STAND HIS FEET ON THE MT. of OLIVES when He returns ALL THE WAY TO THE EARTH at HIS "REVELATION" - ch. 19). No, but at this time He DESCENDS FROM HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the TRUMP OF GOD (not the trumpets of the ANGELS in Revelation, but this is the TRUMP OF GOD - big difference between angels' trumpets and GOD's TRUMP!), and at that moment, ALL THE DEAD "IN CHRIST" (those who died AS BELIEVERS) will RISE FIRST. THEN "WE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM to MEET the LORD IN THE AIR."
KEY OPERATING WORDS: "IN THE AIR." That, my friends, is the RAPTURE which the WT desperately does NOT want you to believe! But don't let them ROB YOU OF YOUR HEAVENLY HOPE. It is "THE BLESSED HOPE" for which ALL BELIEVERS, dead and alive, will be blessed to participate in. Our mortal corruptible bodies will be changed, IN AN INSTANT, IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE, and we will BE JUST AS HE IS (meaning, we will be able to walk through walls, AND eat food, AND zap instantly between heaven and earth, etc., JUST AS HE DID and WILL DO AGAIN, and we will be JUST LIKE HIM -- not in Godship, but in FORM).
BTW, anybody who insists on believers staying here on earth through the Trib are entirely missing the point re: the GLORIOUS MYSTERIES revealed TO PAUL by the RISEN Lord which no other apostle was given directly.
Whew! OK... Now to the confusion re: JUDGEMENTS & RESURRECTIONS that I read in some of the prior pages...
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15. In Paul's epistles he speaks of the JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST, Greek: BEMA SEAT of CHRIST, which was an elevated platform which the judges used during the Olympics. However, BELIEVERS (who have been raptured and are now before the BEMA SEAT of Christ IN HEAVEN) are NOT going to be judged as to whether they are SAVED or not, or whether they will be sent to the Lake of Fire or not, etc. BELIEVERS are ALREADY SAVED AND SEALED. The "judgment" that Christ will determine at this time is regarding REWARDS, and not SALVATION. Christ said that believers ARE capable of "SUFFERING LOSS" but that the person himself "WILL BE SAVED." So He was not talking about LOSS of SALVATION, but LOSS OF REWARDS. Those REWARDS are the 5 CROWNS mentioned in various places in the epistles: CROWN OF LIFE, CROWN OF GLORY, CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, SOUL-WINNERS CROWN, and I always forget the 5th one... But any believer has the opportunity to be REWARDED with 1 or all 5 of the crowns if the Lord sees fit, depending on our MOTIVES during the time we were a servant of the Lord. Some believers will end up with NO CROWNS ("He will suffer LOSS, but he himself will be saved") if they ignored their calling and didn't do diddly during their walk with the Lord. Those who received rewards/crowns will THROW THEM at the Lord's feet in worship and adoration. (I think that's around Rev. ch. 4 or 5).
Summary: The Judgment Seat of Christ/Bema Seat of Christ (for the CHURCH-AGE BELIEVERS -- Jews and Gentiles -- who at that time are already RAPTURED a/k/a "CAUGHT AWAY") takes place DURING THE TRIB while WE ARE IN HEAVEN with the Lord.
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16. The GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT mentioned at the end of Revelation, ch. 21(?) does take place AT THE END OF THE 1,000 YEARS, just as it says, and it is for the WICKED DEAD, the UNBELIEVERS who have died all through the centuries from the beginning of time through that day, and who REJECTED GOD and CHRIST DURING THEIR NATURAL LIFETIME. When these are resurrected to JUDGEMENT at the WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT, they immediately are JUDGED TO EVERLASTING TORMENT in the Lake of Fire. No "if's, and's, or but's" about it.
CONTRARY to what the WT teaches, THERE IS NO "SECOND CHANCE LIFE" to be lived after a future resurrection. That is a LIE, a DEADLY ONE that only the Devil himself could originate, and the WT IS TEACHING IT, and anyone who thinks they can blow God off in THEIR CURRENT LIFE thinking they can "make up for it" during some FUTURE "resurrected life" is going to be SO VERY SORRY INDEED. Paul clearly wrote: "IT IS APPPOINTED FOR MEN TO DIE ONCE, but AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT." See? We DIE ONCE AND THEN The JUDGEMENT. And when Jesus said in John 5:28,29 (FAMOUS WT SCRIPTURE to try to fool people into thinking they get a "SECOND CHANCE LIFE" to believe in Jesus LATER ON), well, TRUE as the Lord said, THERE IS going to be A RESURRECTION OF THE RIGHTEOUS AND THE UNRIGHTEOUS, the righteous to EVERYLASTING LIFE, and the unrighteous to EVERLASTING DAMNATION. And where people end up DEPENDS on how they live DURING THEIR ONE-AND-ONLY-LIFETIME that they will EVER GET. I promise, THERE IS NO "SECOND CHANCE LIFE" later on down the line where people who rejected God will get to "come back to life on earth" and THEN DECIDE they want to serve God. THAT IS A WT LIE. Anybody out there still preaching it, PLEASE STOP! IT IS A CRUEL DECEPTION.
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17. Speaking of WT LIES... and speaking of Revelation... specifically ch. 6 where the RIDER of the WHITE HORSE with ONE CROWN leads the other 3 horses of the Apocalypse: I noticed somewhere in the not so distant past (probably in a thread around here somewhere) that the WT teaches this "white horse rider with ONE CROWN" is JESUS CHRIST. BELIEVE ME, IT IS NOT. And anybody who thinks so is going to be TERRIBLY DECEIVED. The rider of THIS WHITE HORSE in Rev. ch. 6 is THE ANTICHRIST, the MAN OF LAWNESSNESS, the SON OF PERDITION who rides forth with a bow to wage war and bring on the TRIBULATION. HE, the ANTICHRIST, is the LEADER of DEATH, DESTRUCTION, FAMINE, WAR (the red, black, pale horses that FOLLOW HIM) and NOT JESUS CHRIST, for crying out loud. Please do NOT let the WT DECEIVE YOU about this because they are SETTING YOU UP to think the antichrist is JESUS CHRIST and HE CLEARLY IS NOT. (IMHO, I believe that is the WHOLE PURPOSE of the WT ORG, to DECEIVE their 6.5 million mind-manipulated JWs to fall for the antichrist when he appears on the world stage. That is why the WT teaches THERE IS NO SINGULAR INDIVIDUAL PERSON/ANTICHRIST, so that when HE DOES APPEAR on the world stage, they can then do a fast "NEW LIGHT" on you JWs and tell you, Hey, Jesus is here after all! Look at THE PEACE & PROSPERITY he has brought to the world! THIS is THE Kingdom! THE "NEW ORDER"! etc. etc. -- DON'T BUY INTO IT because it will be very short lived!)
Besides, the Lord JESUS CHRIST has "MANY CROWNS" (Rev. 19) and NOT JUST "ONE" CROWN as the antichrist will have when he begins his short-lived reign over the earth -- first as a charming PEACE-MAKER, but in a short time, 3-1/2 years to be exact, he will show his TRUE Colors, and he will be so arrogant he will sit in THE TEMPLE (yes, a rebuilt literal TEMPLE in Israel in the Middle East) and he will CLAIM HE IS GOD, just as PAUL WROTE. It's LITERAL PROPHECY, people, so don't let the WT FOOL YOU into thinking it is "allegorical" or "spiritualized prophecy."
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WT also deceives JWs by teaching there will be NO LITERAL MARK OF THE BEAST, but there most surely WILL BE A LITERAL MARK enforced by the FALSE PROPHET (One World Apostate Church Leader working alongside his buddy, the Antichrist). This will take place at mid-tribulation, 3-1/2 years into the Trib, at the One World Apostate Church's OCCULT INITIATION Ceremonies. If JWs REALLY want to "GO THROUGH" the Trib, as WT has brainwashed them to THINK THEY WANT TO (rather than accept the Heavenly Hope the Lord has extended), then be ready for the MARK OF THE BEAST and to be iducted into Satan's OCCULT religion and its rituals, etc. Me thinks the "closed captioned" [in-house] WT mags coming out early next year are going to really start laying on the deception even thicker than in times past, in preparation for all of these things. Expect some "new light"!)
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OK, that's enough for now. I can't think of anything else from the prior pages I wanted to touch on. Hope this helps some JW hiding behind the internet-bushes but watching and reading just the same. We've all been where YOU ARE. There IS TRUTH and a GLORIOUS HOPE, mucho betta than anything the WT ever taught you. DROP THEIR MAGS and 99% of everything they taught you -- and start asking the Lord for the HOLY SPIRIT -- the TEACHER & GUIDE TO TRUTH -- to TEACH YOU DIRECTLY. GET OUT FROM UNDER THE BRAINWASHING. IT COULD SAVE YOUR LIFE!
(WT is so arrogant, and so presumptuous as to claim that IT ITSELF, "THE ORG," has supplanted the rightful position of the HOLY SPIRIT in the life of the Believer [WT-1985 new baptismal vows, for starters]. What a dastardly LIE straight from the pits of Hades! The WT sets itself up between the Believer and THEIR LORD & MASTER, the same way the Catholic Church has set up its POPE between the Believer and the Lord. Funny how I never saw that OBVIOUS parallel when I was a JW. How could we? WT mags spent so much time bashing the RCC, they always kept us looking in the opposite direction, at the RCC's OTHER "sins," and not the VERY SAME ONE which the WT had COPIED FOR ITSELF, ie, playing MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD & MEN! Just amazing. See how SNEAKY the Devil is???)
Get out while you can! Time is SHORT!
/ag
