So how do they distinguish between a literal and a figurative presence before the throne of God in heavens. One would think that only those in heaven eg the angels are before the throne of God. Humans are not before the throne of God they are not near it, they can't even see God and live.
Where's the Great Crowd?
by Mrs. Witness 48 Replies latest watchtower bible
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JCanon
Just as a side note on Biblical symbolism and also allegory.
You know the reference to the "system of things" sometimes mentioned? The "system of things" is a reference to the current order or things or the way things are, the current situation dictating at the time. Well the order of things is reflected most pertinently in the order of the heavens, the predictable and consistent order of things in heaven and the rotation of the earth, it's consistency, etc. Therefore another parallel reference to the "system of things" is sometimes calls "heaven and earth."
Thus in one place where Christ mentions the "end of the system of things" and in other place "heaven and earth might pass away", he's talking about the same thing. So especially when the Bible speaks of "heaven and earth" passing away, it is not speaking of the literal heaven and earth, obviously, but the current system of things.
This is a way the Bible changes venue, if you will, from one set of circumstances to the other. It is very helpful as well to keep things in chronological order, since when it it mentioned that heaven and earth fled or passes away, it is talking about the current system of things ending, and a new order or situation now being established. Thus we find the reference at Revelation 20:11 speaking of "the earth and the heven fled away, and no place was found for them." This is at the critical juncture of a great change in the "system of things" or the current situation. This is when the world goes from when Satan is released testing mankind to when Judgment Day begins. Satan's final testing of mankind was one venue in process at that time, but when that is over and he is destroyed, a whole new venue comes in, Judgment Day and the judging of all mankind. There is no Satan. Thus that system of things, that "heaven and earth" are said to be no more and to have passed away.
Likewise, we find a similar expression when the specific circumstances of Judgment Day is ended. After all the wicked are killed and all the righteous get eternal life, the judging is over. Thus another period or system of things passes away and a new system of things then takes over. Thus at Revelation 21:1 it says, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away." This simply means one system of things is being replaced by another. One heaven and earth is being replaced by another heaven and earth, or order of things. In this case the rules and focus of Judgment Day are no more and have passed away, and the next phase of what is to happen next, a new order of things is now in place.
Understanding that "heaven and earth" is equivalent to the current "system of things" is quite helpful in preventing us from introducing events out of chronological order. Case in point once Judgment Day begins and it mentions that earth and heaven are no more and have passed away, we know that everything that happens during Judgment Day, including the second resurrection has to occur after Satan is destroyed in the lake of fire, because Satan was part of that old system of things, that old "heaven and earth" that have fled and are no more. Thus in particular, JWs generally think that the resurrection, though clearly described after Satan is destroyed, actually happens during the millennium, but it doesn't. By noting that the old heavens and earth had fled it keeps this part of the text in strict chronological order.
It is quite complex, all the allegory combined with trying to understand local colloquialisms, but once one looks closely enough with an effort to actually understand what the writer is trying to say, instead of trying to read our own agenda into the text, then these wonderful little nuances make themselves apparent and the references are understood in their true context.
Just as a note, therefore, when Jesus talked about the "end of the system of things" that would not occur until the "good news" was preached worldwide, he was not talking about the end of the world, or the end of the system of things that ends with Armageddon. Instead he was speaking of the system of things currently in place for the Jews, the system of things of the "gentile times" or the "appointed times of the nations." That system of things ended in 1947 when the Jews finally came out of exile and had a country of their own again, as promised would be granted on the heels of the "great tribulation", a tribulation like the world had never seen nor would see again. That was the Holocaust. So when Jesus said at Matthew 24:34 "Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away," we can take this literally and apply it chronologically.
How so? Well he mentions that the generation would not pass away but "heaven and earth" will pass away. Thus the generation that would see all these things would extend past when "heaven and earth" would end. The translation of this is that the end of that system of things, the system of things of the "gentile times" would indeed pass away before the last signs of that generation or that generation itself would pass away. That last generation of 80 years was from 1914 to 1994. But the "end of the gentile times" occurred in 1947, thus before the end of the last generation. Now doesn't that make more sense than thinking that the literal heaven and earth would pass away before the second coming? Or that heaven, where God dwells and the earth, which abides forever, would one day be no more? Of course not.
This addresses one of the fascinations but also complications of language and culture. Trying to understand some of the idioms and alleogories and colloquailisms used in the Bible that people back there understood in their time, that have no real meaning for us in our time, any more than someone saying today "You can reach me on my cell anytime!" when translated in any other time prior to the cellular phone would be understood as an isolated reference. Thus some effort needs to be made at the very hint of a possible contradiction or inconsistency to see if we can put ourselves into the cultural situation back then, that actual setting to help understand what is being said rather than going with the contradiction.
So when Jesus talks about it being harder for a rich man to enter heaven than a "camel" to pass through the eye of a needle, he's not talking about a literal 4-legged dromedary, he's talking about the colliqualism of a knot in the thread or when the thread bunches up behind the needle, the few strands that pass through followed by the bunched up thread not passing through resembling a camel with its small head and skinny neck being able to pass through small passages but not his entire body with that hump. Or when Christ talks about the pharisees straining out the gnat and gulping down a "camel" in their drink, he's not having us imagine a huge camel that might end up in some wine glass, but instead a very large horsefly, which they called a camelfly, "camel" for short, that would be gulped down. Thus the "camel" and the gnat are compared together as of the same things, only one really, really small and the other quite huge, but still quite possible to gulp down even if they choked on it. How can someone gulp down a literal camel? Still few people actually make the distinction. Likewise "heaven and earth" as a catch-phrase to describe the order of things is often misunderstood as a literal reference to the heavens and the literal earth, which it is not.
JC
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JCanon
Just a little CHRONOLOGY here since the temple is mentioned, which is made up of the Bride Class.
The Bride Class is on the earth with Christ all during the 1000-year reign, all during the time Satan is released testing mankind after the millennium (probably 40 years), and then for Judgment Day which follows that (probably 80 years). It is not until death is destroyed in the lake of fire after the last wicked person is judged and sent there at the 144,000 actually go up to heaven in spiritual bodies. So some references about the temple and those dwelling in it might be affected by the timeline.
But as the Bride Class (which is really 10% natural Jews of 144,000 and the other 90% gentiles (1,296,000) serves as king-priests for the people on the earth, their providing priestly services to the population could be considered as an allegory for the population coming to the temple and being in the temple. But if that reference is prior to the end of Judgment Day, then it actually takes place on the earth.
Again the "root" of the olive tree is all that was left for the Jews. Just 10%, with 12,000 from each tribe set aside to fulfill the Covenant of Abraham for him becoming a nation of kings and priests. 90% was taken away (Isa 6:13) due to unfaithfulness and granted to the gentiles to be grafted in. So the entire number of 1,440,000 is made up of 144,000 natural Jews, descendants from one of the 12 tribes, and the rest are gentiles making up the other 1,296,000. They are all on the earth serving as kings and priests from the millennium, right through Judgment Day. They don't get to go up to heaven and sip pina coladas all day and playing Bible games until after all the hard work is done of saving as many of mankind as possible. So many nice people point out inconsistencies in the WTS doctrines, which is good, but few progress to see the entire corrected big picture.
JC
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IP_SEC
enopion is used to describe where the 144k and angels and four living creatures are. It is also used to describe where A great crowd is. Enopion = before, in sight of. The JW explaination of enopion might be plausable but some how they always forget to tell you that the 144k, angels, and four living creatures are enopion the throne along with A great crowd.
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steve2
Let's brutally cut to the chase:
Whenever Revelation discusses "the great crowd", the immediate context always places that crowd in heaven. All the rest is speculative detail.
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Eliveleth
This question is what led my husband and I out of the WT. What impressed me in my study of this subject (from the New World Translation by the way) was in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation: If you read the Greek Translation word for word it says that in vs.9: "the "great crowd " is: "in sight of the throne and also "in sight of the Lamb" and v.15:"Through this they are in sight of the throne of the God, and they are rendering sacred service to him of day and of night in the divine habitation of him, and the (one) sitting upon the throne will tent upon them."
I did a lot of research on the book of Revelation and the word "naos" and "hieron" and was convinced without a doubt that I had been deceived by the WT. (This was a shock to me because when I prayed for guidance, I expected that God would show me that the WT was the "truth") All my research was done in the Kingdom Interlinear and Strong's Concordance. I think it is pretty remarkable that when you ask for Holy Spirit, you can find the truth anywhere.
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jwfacts
There is an article about this at http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/greatcrowd.htm
In particular:
Each term that identifies the Great Crowd in Revelation 7:9-17 is elsewhere applied by the Watchtower to the Anointed ones in heaven. This places the Great Crowd in heaven. Following are descriptions of the Great Crowd, followed by a scripture using the same term to describe the Anointed heavenly class.
“great crowd”
Revelation 19:1 - After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven …” It is interesting to note that the New World Translation leaves reference to Rev. 19:1 out of it’s Bible Words Indexed section under the heading Great Crowd.
“out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues”
Revelation 5:9 - And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth .”
“standing before ( enopion ) the throne”
Revelation 7:11 - And all the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their faces before ( enopion ) the throne and worshiped God.
the 144 000 in Rev 14:3 are standing before the throne.
“before ( enopion ) the Lamb”
Revelation 5:8 - And when he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before ( enopion ) the Lamb , having each one a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense, and the [incense] means the prayers of the holy ones.
“dressed in white robes”
Revelation 6:11- And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been.
“crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.””
Revelation 19:1 - After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: “Praise Jah, YOU people! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God (w81 1/15 p. 16 “ The singing of those heavenly voices ”)
“come out of the great tribulation”
Matthew 24:21-22 For then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.
Mark 13:24-27 24 “But in those days, after that tribulation , the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send forth the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.
“washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 22:14 - Happy are those who wash their robes , that the authority [to go] to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates.
“rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple”
Revelation 11:1-2 - And a reed like a rod was given me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple [sanctuary] of God and the altar and those worshiping in it. 2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations,
“One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them”
2 Corinthians 6:16 - For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I shall reside among them and walk among [them], and I shall be their God, and they will be my people.
Revelation 7:9 does not say that the Great Crowd are on earth and they are described by terms used to identify those resurrected to heaven. Revelation 19:1 specifically states that there is a “Great Crowd in heaven”.
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JosephMalik
Mrs. Witness,
What is it with all these verses in Revelation everyone seems to understand so well. Was all this a mystery until then? What were the followers teaching prior to this document? Where did they think they were going to be when they participated in the Kingdom? Does anyone know what they taught?Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? Wow! After all that instruction too. And nothing changed after that either. We must get our feet firmly planted on the ground before we start interpreting signs and symbols. The Revelation does not change doctrine. It simply explains it on a higher level. So then take the word "heaven" that everyone likes so well. Does it mean a place and nothing else? Look at it first and it means:
AV-heaven 268, air 10, sky 5, heavenly + 1537; 284
1) the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it
1a) the universe, the world
1b) the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced
1c) the sidereal or starry heavens
2) the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings
And heaven to a Jew was the same as saying God to a Gentile. You do not find this and other meanings in such dictionaries regarding heaven which also was used for governments and authority. They were kept secret it seems. Why then do so many jump to conclusions not supported by non-symbolic texts like? Joh 11:24 Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
Since when and where did our hope go from living eternally here on earth as a human being to being made into a non-human creature that will live somewhere else? Nowhere! For such reasons our Lord became human to raise humans once again. For such reason our Lord will return as a human to rule humans that will exist with him. Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. For such reason we finally learn even in the visions everyone likes so well that: 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." That is what we should be teaching as that is what Jesus and the apostles believed as well.
No one will go to a place called heaven, nor will any non-spirit creatures be created from human ones because of our Lord’s sacrifice. The Kingdom is for human beings that will dwell with God right here on earth just as intended in the first place.
Joseph
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JCanon
Hello Joseph: You have an interesting viewpoint here:
No one will go to a place called heaven, nor will any non-spirit creatures be created from human ones because of our Lord’s sacrifice. The Kingdom is for human beings that will dwell with God right here on earth just as intended in the first place.
I would not agree with this, however, because the the 1,440,000 (the actual number of the Bride class is 1,440,000, since the 10% root are natural Jews -- Isa. 6:13) become Christ's Bride. Originally, the two angels who are the "covering cheubs" on top fo the Ark of the Covenant represent Christ and his compansion/wife, the angel who became Satan. The Church who becomes Christ's new Bride replace her. They become his new wife on heavenly mount Zion.
Now the way the 1st resurrection works, is that it happens before Christ himself has his second coming. Christ as Michael the Archangel raises the dead just before he himself becomes human again. Those resurrected for the first resurrection are transplanted like seeds into the bodies of imperfect followers of Christ in the modern age. Thus they share a body and identity with a modern person. That's why it is invible. Thus they are said to be sown into a physical body and later raised in a spiritual one. So this is where your concept that no one will ever be a spirit has to be challenged. The Bible specifically contrasts the first stage of the first resurrection as PHYSICAL but the second state as SPIRITUAL. 1 Cor 15:
40 And there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort.
44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one.
NOW. I'll just share my interpretation of this. Again, the first resurrection involves body/identity sharing of those to be resurrected. They are like seeds sown into the impefect bodies of modern followers of Christ. One seed per body: "God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and to each of the seeds its own body." This is the first phase of the 1st resurrection. While in these physical bodies, along with those already alive at the second coming, they serve on the earth as kings and priests throughout the 1000 years. Then Stan is released to test mankind for a short while (likely 40 years). Then Satan and his rebels are destroyed. Then that system of things passes away, expressed as that "heaven and earth" fleeing away. At that point now JUDGMENT DAY begins. First the dead, the great and the small are judged. These are those coming out of the millennium. Then the dead in the graves and in the sea, both righteous and unrighteous are raised up back to life. What they did during their lives will be the basis of what they are judged on, whether or not they knew God or were Jewish or anything. The wicked will then experience the second death and the righteous will get everlasting life. Then, when death is no more, the second phase of the first resurrection takes place. This is when the physical body becomes the spiritual one. Per 1 Corinthians this takes place only after death, man's last enemy is finally destroyed:
54 But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: “Death is swallowed up forever.” 55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?”
Death is not thrown into the lake of fire until the last human has died. That doesn't happen until the end of Judgment Day. But it is at that instant that this "rapture" takes place, when all the anointed are changed in the "twinkling of an eye" and become spirit beings and "meet the Lord in the air." Now if these are to become angels and spirits, then obviously, it makes sense they are going to be able to meet the Lord in the air, since we know angels can fly around, right? How is it if they are still human that this makes since that they meet the Lord in the air?
So to say that no one on the earth will ever have a spiritual body in the face of all these scriptures simply is difficult to accept. Even the context of "meeting the Lord in the air" is sufficient to confirm these will have spiritual bodies since normal humans can't fly, right?
So I just have to respectfully disagree with this view. I know it must harmonize with some overall concepts you have about the whole picture of what is to happen, but I don't see you overcoming the above scriptural hurdles in an effective contradict. And since you can always have the option of interpreting a "spiritual body" as a literal spiritual body, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Thanks for sharing your input, however. I do pay close attention to what you have to present. But you're way off here on this one, Joseph, IMHO.
JC
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Stealth453
At the beach.