Where's the Great Crowd?

by Mrs. Witness 48 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Sarah Smiles

  Thanks Lady Liberty!

  Mrs. Witness, Just for fun, I think your dealing with an earthly vision. The 144,000 are sealed (past tense) not like the Jehovah Witness think that they are still sealing the 144,000. I think that the Great Crowd received their white robes but are not sealed and they will be added to the number of 144,000 and the souls under the alter in Rev 6. As far as I am concerned, below is an answer to the souls under the alter in Rev 6.

  Earthly

  Rev 7: 1 After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth

  3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”

  4 "And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:"

  9 "After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number,"

  Rev6: 9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have.

  The souls asked a question and the received a reply:

  Rev 6: 11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been.

  After chapter 7, I am not too sure where they are! maybe they are under the alter with the other souls. There really is not enough information from these scriptures to prove anything but they are on earth receiving white robes and getting sealed. Although later , I do not think the great crowd,earthly group, is rendering sacred service day and night on the earth because that's would be a lot of hours! and I am getting tired.

  There is something about the Revelation 19:1

  There is also something else about the prayers! I get back to you.
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  ex-icoc

  i am dealilng with a JW in this particular issue. Just wanted to bookmark this thread.
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  JosephMalik

  ex-icoc,

  I know that it sounds insane. I thought I came up with something startling back in the 70's and wrote the WT. Well many others were writing WT HQ back then about the same thing. It was before the shake up. It also was one reason for the shakeup. Others read and studied and come up with nearly identical material I found out later. They wanted to know where I got it? It was hard to believe anyone could come up with it on their own. Then it turns out that the Church of God, Faith of Abraham with a Bible College in Atlanta teaches the very same thing. And they have no trinity, hell fire, immotal soul and all that. But they deny the pre-existence of our Lord. How could this happen and go on for so long? It all hinges around how we perceive words like heaven, which to a Jew means many things we do not recognize. And words like spirit which can mean nearly anything everytime it appears. Jewish use and understanding was the key. Root texts that firmed up what to believe should not be violated by symbolic texts. Much was unsaid in texts because it was ingrained in their theology and there was no need to spell it out, but Gentile and pagan beliefs that crept in later in Paul's day changed all that covering this up. And Christianity misses it now just like they missed Passover and our Lord's six day ordeal. So it may sound nuts, but it has proven itself over the years and has stood up to all challenges.

  Joseph
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  Sarah Smiles

  WELCOME EX-ICE!

  It is good to see you on here.
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  Sarah Smiles

  Mrs. Witness: I went over Revelation 4-7 again and here is what I came up with.

  I am beginning to think that grouping the NUMBER together; souls, 144,000, and great crowd would be considered the church or congregation for most main stream religions. However, that is what Jehovah Witness do not believe so it is one of those doctrines that makes the Jehovah's Witnesses different than main stream churches.

  They have the 144,000 bride that are choosen from bethel by numbering how many are left 8,800. Now, really does it make sense to you? Not even Jesus knows who the 144,000 are so how could the J.W.?

  Anyhow, I grew up a J.W. and this concept was the only concept I was taught, now I realize it is another spiritual lie made up by a man made organization.

  At this point in Johns vision it is earthly they receive white robes and it continues. So where are they now? In Heaven or resting with white robes another topic.
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  JosephMalik

  Hello Sarah,

  Let’s start our search for the great crowd from the beginning, back to our roots. If we did that it would look like this:

  3: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

  Can you see the great crowd in here anywhere? Can you see now why Eve would now need more children than originally intended in order to produce it. Can you see that much? Can you also see the seed of the Serpent that will exist along with it? If you can then you will able to see it through history and trace it’s development.

  In time we will learn this:

  Mt 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. Mt 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

  Can you see the great crowd now? Can you also see the seed of the Serpent or at least the most discernable part of it? And it can also be pictured like this:

  Matt 225: 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

  Can you see the great crowd now? Can you see the seed of the Serpent? It is still under development but we should be able to see this much of them both. If you can then you should be able to see them in the Kingdom itself where they will receive further guidance like this:

  Re 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; . . . 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

  Many humans have already been weeded out. You do not see the seed of the Serpent now but it is there, hidden, having qualified to be resurrected. We will not know for sure exactly who is who until after the final test is ended. We know this much for now but the story has not yet ended.

  Joseph
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  JosephMalik

  Ok. Might as well finish the story. It goes like this for the great crowd:

  20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

  Some are identified by name’s that symbolize they are enemies of the faith of one sort or another and dealt with. The devil is now permanently dealt with as well so those remaining no longer have to face such scrutiny. The earth will now be filled as originally intended. To some it may look like the resurrection has not started yet because of the verses that follow this. But the Revelation is a series of parables that cover all or parts of the Kingdom over and over just like the parables of the Kingdom our Lord gave in Matt 24 and 25. So the verses that follow simply show how the Nations mentioned in verse 3 (the great crowd in this discussion) some of which turn out to be Gog and Magog, got there in the first place.

  Joseph
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  Sarah Smiles

  Joseph: Yes I do see your view points as to the great crowd. but she is only dealing with a certain time not the entire time of mankind!

  As far as I am concerned it still one continuing number! Can you see it?

  And what about the the holy city And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

  Anyhow, it still does not matter because Jehovah does the choosing who the 144,000 are and Jesus will choose his faith servants to add to the number.

  It does not change my faith in God if the great crowd is on earth or in heavens. There are two ways of looking at the topic and the Jehovah Witness only give one! and say everyone else is teaching false doctrines.

  Well maybe not!
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  moshe

  The old JW Greek diaglot was plain- the 144,000 and the Great Crowd that were before the throne had the same Greek word for 'before'. I wrote a tract about it almost 20 years ago. While I have no copy of it now, I know that Lori MacGregor published it in her magzine when I sent her a copy. The photocopies of the two passages and the Greek words that were circled was especially damning to the WTS dogma of an earthly Great Crowd- they stopped printing that diaglott.
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  hamsterbait

  The great crowd is in the "DIVINE HABITATION" accoeding to the greek.

  The NWT applies this word to being in heaven for anything applying to them, or the living creatures etc.

  Only in the case of the Great Crowd do they say otherwise.

  Actually there is a website that goes into the deliberate misrepresentation of the scripture.

  It uses the Witchtower article "The Great Crowd Serves God - Where?"

  Interestingly Judas Iscariot threw his silver into the temple (naos) because he knew only the priests could enter that area. (Which according to St Paul represented Heaven - see Hebrews) The GC are in the Naos, not the heiron.

  Sic transit gloria FDS Class.

  HB