by Terry 92 Replies latest watchtower bible
FedorE
the only way to get information into the "system" would be from a " being" outside of our world
How did that being get the info? Some of the posts have described how empty the precreation bible god would have been. It's that infinite regression problem, again. It is much simpler (occum's rasor) to proceed w a premise that something, perhaps not exactly a being, perhaps some kind of semiconsciousness was within the system that became the universe.
S
FedorE: JC here is another strange cloud formation,that isnt a manifestation of anything but looks like a face...wouldnt it be foolish to make a story centered around it?
Yes, I would think so. But more is involved with my photo than with yours. Consider this:
1) The images appeared first and were captured. I think images appear all the time. That's understandable. But was anyone expecting these images to appear or did they just happen to be around with a camera to capture it? In the case of the sign of the son of man (SSM) image, it is part of a series of photos taken for a 3-hour period by a skyscape photographer who was expecting something. That is, these images were not seen until after the photos were examined.
2) The circumstance of photographing the sky on this particular day and time is related to the appearance of the sign six years earlier on the specific date and time. That adds to the significance of the imagery. It was semi-expected (i.e. there was a belief that a sign might appear on the 7th (7th appearance) anniversary of the previous sign, but not sure if it would. It did.)
3) This is a 3-PART SIGN. Three concepts going on at the same time. Your images are just singular.
4) The imagery is not just anything, it is specific to the second coming, particularly Zechariah 3 where it speaks of Jerusalem being snatched out of the fire like a log. Dead bodies were wrapped up in cloth and thrown into the fires of the valley of Hinom where they burned trash outside Jerusalem, the basis for the concept of "Gehenna." So the interpretation of the mummy-like figure rising out the river of fire relates to Jerusalem, the Jews, the prodigal son messiah, once rejected, being saved out of the fire of destruction at the last minute. In the case of the Jews, who also represent the "messiah", that fire was the Holocaust where two-thirds of them were killed and a third preserved, as prophesied (Zech 13:8). In the case of the prodigal son, he was considered dead until he returned and thus was saved at the last moment, but chosen to become the messiah. It is the prodigal son who receives the new "robes of state" and the banquet, which represents the circumstance of the second coming. Of course, a bird coming down out of heaven represents holy spirit and the aspect of Christ's heavenly being that appeared to John at Jesus' baptism. In his day it was a dove. At the second coming the bird becomes an eagle: "Where the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered." Now these two images are symmetrically connected. This is not just an eagle's head or a eagle sitting on a wire or just flying through the sky. It is actually descending. And since it is in silhouette the backlighting can representing the light of heaven from which it descends. Thus this is very specific. Same goes to the face. It's not just any face, but clearly a child's face. The proportion of the eyes are that of an infant, the tiny nose and mouth are consistent with an infant. The concept of an "infant" of course, suggests a recent birth and thus a parent, a "son." The concept of a "son" is better depicted by a child/infant, than an adult. But two other specifics relate to the face. BOTH EYES are closed. So you can see the child is sleeping or dead. This is the state of the prodigal son. Note in Matthew when those "eagles" see the sign, their response is to "beat themselves in lamentation." That is, they see something that will make them mourn over the messiah. What is it? It is a depiction of a messiah who is dead. So do you see how specific the sign has to be to match the context of what happens when the sign is seen? The dead body and the sleeping/dead child explain why there is mourning and crying when the sign is seen. This is the "carcass" around which the eagles surround. Just as the Bible says. Finally, the complexion of the child is clearly black. The imagery is made up of black clouds rather than the usually billowy white clouds. This is also specific to the messiah as his physical appearance is that of an "Etiopian eunuch" at the second coming in the form of king-priest Melchizedek (that is, once he returns from his spiritual death), which is an equivalent reference to his circumstances of being "impaled in SODOM (eunuch/gay) and EGYPT (black/Ethiopian). So that makes a difference. Therefore, if the person taking the photo of the whale was in a location of whale worshippers, then I'd say that was significant and maybe a sign from God from their Whale God, especially if it appeared on the anniversary of the Whale God. But if it is not related to their worship, then it is just an unconnected fascination of cloud imagery. That is not the case with the SSM image, where you have a tri-part concept specific to the second coming, occurring on a specific date, to a specific individual trained in skyscape photography, and a reference in the Bible that there would be a heavenly sign from God that would begin to appear at the time of the second coming, a sign that would cause those followers of Christ to beat themselves in lamentation over what they saw. So this is more significant than the spontaneous images one might sometimes see in the clouds. Not to mention that the images were expected during a specific date and time and the photographs taken before the images actually appeared. I do think that adds to the credibility that this is actually a sign from God, and is the fulfillment of the promised "sign of the son of man." AGAIN, it's not just some impressive image that fits some scene in the Bibe, the "sign of the son of man" was supposed to appear at the time of the second coming. It was mentioned in the Bible. It says that sign was going to be seen in heaven. So it all starts to add up once it is clear that Jehovah decided to provide as evidence a photograph of the sign that had appeared to the "eagles" the anointed ones.
5) Finally, the fact that the sign has appeared to all of the secret anointed ones is evidenced by a mockery of the sign (and thus its significance held by some of the anointed to the second coming) in the Revelation book, where you see the sleeping black face next to a cryptic flying bird image (lower-left of the face) in the Revelation book:
So in comparison, if someone did want to start a Whale God religion based on that sign, it would have to appear to all the members in skies of their own backyards. Can they make that claim? No. So the difference is subtle but profound at the same time between my imagery and yours. It's like potentially millions of different combinations of numbers, but only one winning lottery ticket out of all of those millions of potential numbers. The numbers are numbers. Impressive images are impressive images. But connecting them to what is going on in the Bible or with believers is quite another story.
ZECH 3: 2 Then [the angel of] Jehovah said to Satan: “Jehovah rebuke you, O Satan, yes, Jehovah rebuke you, he who is choosing Jerusalem! Is this one not a log snatched out of the fire?”
3 Now as for Joshua, he happened to be clothed in befouled garments and standing before the angel. 4 Then he answered and said to those standing before him: “Remove the befouled garments from upon him.” And he went on to say to him: “See, I have caused your error to pass away from upon you, and there is a clothing of you with robes of state.”
5 At that I said: “Let them put a clean turban upon his head.” And they proceeded to put the clean turban upon his head and to clothe him with garments; and the angel of Jehovah was standing by.
LUKE 15: 21 Then the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy of being called your son. Make me as one of your hired men.’ 22 But the father said to his slaves, ‘Quick! bring out a robe, the best one, and clothe him with it, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. 23 And bring the fattened young bull, slaughter it and let us eat and enjoy ourselves, 24 because this my son was dead and came to life again; he was lost and was found.’
The king-priest Joshua who gets new robes represents the prodigal son messiah who receives new robes when he returns home from his spiritual death.
CONCLUSION: For those who are not expecting the messiah to appear in this way, the imagery in the clouds will have little significance. To them it's just like any other occasional impressive imagery that might appear. But for those in the "eagle" organizations of Christ's secret followers who were prophesied would be expecting the "carcass" of the messiah and would cry over his dead body when they saw the sign in the heavens, the imagery is validation that God does exist AND that this God is the same God of the Bible and of the Jews.
So we're sort of back at square one, where anybody who sees angels or talks with God personally have no problem believing there is a god, because it more first-hand for them. But for those out of that loop, so to speak, they are still wondering and guessing.
Even so, there is a greater degree of presentation by God by (1) Someone sharing that experience who has spoken with God, and (2) Sharing a photograph of the image they claim to have seen, even if it not seen in the same significant context. So it's sort of like God giving the non-believers a little tease. It's not the full-on miracle that converts everybody who sees it. But it is still more than just the written word in the Bible too.
God appears more abundantly to those who believe in him and seek him out. He does not appear (except to deliver destruction) to those who are waiting around for him to look for them and do a lot of impressive magic tricks and miracles before they decide they want to believe. Those types are on such a fast-track straight to Gehenna, it would make your head spin!
Thanks for sharing the nice photos!!
JCanon
This is a real cloud formation too. I think it has something to do with the Beach Boys.
This one means the Mother Ship will arrive shortly.
JC...If I see that picture ONE MORE TIME, I'm going to SCREAM. (no offense)
...sigh.....
"If"
JC...If I see that picture ONE MORE TIME, I'm going to SCREAM. (no offense)
Sorry, I'll post a link half the time. But it is evidence of not only that there's a god but that we have chronologically arrived at the time of the second coming. There is a possibility that others have not seen this miraculous gift from god as well. It's interesting you find God's artwork so... "intense"? I wonder that that says? I LOVE IT THOUGH! It is soooo incredibly clever of the Father to provide it. It's extra-Biblical. It's profound. It's a key bargaining ace-in-the-hole for a lot of things on the inside spiritual level of things going on with the anointed in the WTS. So I guess we're on the same page. When you see it, you're ready to SCREAM and when I see it I'm ready to SHOUT! JCanon
Awakened, I don't think it's possible for anyone to be "outside of time" - time after all, is a concept that we have to measure periods between events. Time gives us a sense of where we are. Time is past, as in yesterday; it is present as in now and it is future as in tomorrow. By the time I submit this post, the present becomes the past...
I understand. But ETERNITY has sometimes been likened to a rubber band with a flat surface. It has two sides. You travel on the inside or the outside. But if you cut the band and twist it and put the ends back together, then you create a band with only one side. One continuous side.
Or think of time as a single line that does have a beginning and and end. But that time and every year cuts divides that line into smaller and smaller units. There is no end to how many times you can divide the line. As time goes on the number of divisions simply increase. Like first you divide it in half, then you divide a half into half and then again, and again, and again, and again, and again. So maybe time is like that rubber band that was cut and twisted. Maybe the past is connected to the future but we will never get there because as time goes on we end up standing still as each year passes where we are on the band gets divided into smaller and smaller segments, never to end. Thus theoretically, we get farther and farther away from the end of time where the past connects to the future, and we never reach it. In fact, as time goes by we get farther from it. You can always divide what is left in half, no matter how small. Now think of God as having the power to move along the onesided band, where there is no distinction between the past and the future. It's INCOMPREHENSIBLE. But then, YHWH wouldn't be as great a GOD as he is if we could comprehend him so easily, now would he? He dwells in the unapproachable light. JCanon P.S. I'll let you in on an observation about God that I've shared before. You know how sometimes a parent is very busy, maybe a working mother who has a career, etc. But that person is very focussed when it comes to the children. So while they are at school that parent is busy at work, but when the child gets home from school, the parent stops all that stuff and focuses on the child, giving that child focussed attention while the child is there. But still the parent is not exactly relaxed? She's not in her robe or house clothes but dressed to go out? That's how an interview with God sort of was. I was definitely on his agenda, a very important item, but by far not the only item. Now I did have his focus and undivided attention, but I got the feeling that once I was gone from his immediate presence he was rushing back to his card game or something else he was intensely involved in some other place that had nothing to do with this universe. And in a way, though God certainly hasn't abandoned us, he basically set up Jesus Christ as the new God. Everybody is to worship Jesus as god now. Jesus recognizes his Father as God, and so everyone also recognizes the Father, but basically everything in the universe was created FOR, BY and THROUGH Jesus. So he wanted someone else to experience what it was like to be a GOD. It must be so much fun being God, he just wanted to share it with one other being. It's as if God has taken himself out of the equasion to a degree and left it in the hands of his son, who God understands could give mankind their best chance for eternal life. JCanon
I'm just responding to the initial post with these comments...
From a "time-based" perspective I accept that before God started creating He couldn't be a creator, but is that the single defining quality that makes Him "God", or is it not rather simply a matter of "substance" or being made of "god-stuff"?
BEFORE God began creating...there was nothing and nothing to know....and therefore nothing to LOVE.
This would be one reason why some choose to beleive that the minimum number of persons needed to make a godhead would be three. It would take one to give, one to receive and one to observe and objectify so that the statement could be made "God is love". Again I'm applying the term "God" to refer to the substance rather than the individual person[s].
Of course if you're taking the WTS viewpoint that there is only one person called "God" and that person just happens to live an awfully long time then all the original premises of this thread bear weight.
