Can men discuss feminism critically?

by Paralipomenon 74 Replies latest jw friends

  • saywhat29
    saywhat29
    But in general, my opinion is that academic standards which apply to research and scholarship are simply not followed in gender and racial scholarship. that makes much of what is produced of no value to us as a society.

    Hmm, it's not that outright disagree with you, but I just wonder what you mean by the 'us'? I mean if women have been cut out of parts of society and need to examine their place in that same society when it comes to labor, power, sex, the family, etc., then does't that become valuable to her (them)? And as a black man who has been seen as less than a man- even close to that of an aninal in the context of the Western world, isn't it imortant for people of color then to do the same thing?

    I agree with you on the parts of how racial and gender scholarship needs to have standards and need to UP thos standards, but that part to me about "us as a society" seemed suspect because in general if people of color, women, and folks in the LGBT community have been deemed not as valuable compared to the rest of society, then isn't that thought or prejudice going to color how we view the study of said groups and communities?

  • Forscher
    Forscher

    By "us" I mean everybody,

    What truly benefits one part of society ultimately benefits everybody in the long run. I will not deny that women have been on the short end of the stick, nor other races either. But making unrealistic assumptions as to causes and effects within society and acting on those assumptions brings no lasting benefits. In the end all one accomplishes is to increase, rather than decrease, relations among the various groups in society. I think the recent increase in polarization among various groups in our society gives witness to my point.

    For instance, feminists tells us that income disparity is completely and solely due to bias against women in the workplace. Not true. Sure, there is still some problem in that regard, but the majority of such disparity can be easily explained by any student of economics (Marxian economic theory explains it best). Although racism does account for some problems(it will take more than a generation or two to completely eradicate it), it is not the end all nor cause of every problem encountered by those who are not white Anglos. Yet assuming it is and laying all the blame for the sad state of race relations at Anglo feet will not solve the problem. If anything it will increase resentment on all sides and exacerbate the problem, just as it recently has.

    I could go on, but there isn't much point in it. Right now everybody is too emotionally invested in blaming the other guy for society to get anywhere. That is sad.

    Forscher

  • sweetstuff
    sweetstuff
    they are all a bunch of weirdos who live off their emotions at certain parts of the month....and their mans wallets the rest of the month

    That comment deserves a ned housecall. Google glasgow neds everyone who doesn't know what I mean, Ninja does. he he JK Ninja

    Ok, on feminisim, criticism is a good thing. Feminism is a two-edged sword. We have gained rights and liberties we both wanted and needed. But the downside is women are now expected to be "superwomen", have a career, raise a family and do both exceedingly well. Not impossible, but a very difficult task to accomplish. I see alot of kids today with no respect, no manners and wonder, if things really are better this way, mom at work, kids in daycare, being raised by people who don't love those children, aren't invested in their development as a human being. Equality to me means recognizing that each person's choice is totally acceptable and no one should feel superior to another. I have heard female friends of mine, who work like myself, make comments towards stay at home moms, saying, "I could never live off a man", umm, last I checked, if a couple are working together as a team, they BOTH have jobs just one doesn't receive a paycheck!Neither is superior to the other.

    Feminism seems to have turned some women against each other in some cases. Those who choose to stay home and raise kids are looked down upon by some who have chosen a career as their priority. Neither is wrong, neither is right. It's a personal choice. But without feminism some archiac systems and attitudes would still be in place. I think we just need to iron out the wrinkles in feminism and of course men should be a part of that, they are co-parents, lovers, fathers, sons in our lives. The world cannot function without both sexes, equality has not been achieved but I hope we are on the right track towards it.

  • saywhat29
    saywhat29
    But making unrealistic assumptions as to causes and effects within society and acting on those assumptions brings no lasting benefits. In the end all one accomplishes is to increase, rather than decrease, relations among the various groups in society. I think the recent increase in polarization among various groups in our society gives witness to my point.

    Hmm, but to mee if these problems exist in the first place then aren't the groups polarized in the first place? No that may not be true, but you cannot realy blame folks for trying to figure out why they have the short end of the stick, but I agree with you that it is a multi-faceted problem and thee is no clear answer or solution.

    I like Studies such as these is because they empower folks. Women are given the same benefits as men, the "why" is again multifaceted, but it teaches folks to depend on themelsves and to look upon one another in their group to gain momentum in socety, where they feel they have none.

    feminists tells us that income disparity is completely and solely due to bias against women in the workplace. Not true. Sure, there is still some problem in that regard, but the majority of such disparity can be easily explained by any student of economics (Marxian economic theory explains it best).

    And again, you cannot say that- because there are many facets of feminism that contribute that to many other things and is critical of said thought. Like I said, no group is more critical of feminists THAN feminists. People are aware of the fact tha women are mother and caregivers and take note of that, while others battle the bias against women in th workplace because, again like you mentioned, and they focus on that issue and in dismantling it. It does not mean that thats the ONLY reason why women are not empowered in the workplace the way men are.

    Although racism does account for some problems(it will take more than a generation or two to completely eradicate it), it is not the end all nor cause of every problem encountered by those who are not white Anglos. Yet assuming it is and laying all the blame for the sad state of race relations at Anglo feet will not solve the problem. If anything it will increase resentment on all sides and exacerbate the problem, just as it recently has.

    And again, studies of race do place accountablity where they believe it is due. But again, even in the facets people don't tend to agree and are critical of one another, so to paint with broad strokes that issues with race are soley to blame on white people is not even the issue. Race studies these days dals with how WE ALL continue to let such relations continue on and how the self hatred of people of color and their position of economic power in society alow such disparities to continue. To me it sounds like you are coming with only the "Blame Whitey" routine when Race Studies does not do that.

    Okay it does that, LOL! and you know what it feels good to say that, I'm not gonna lie- to express yourself and your opinon when most consider it not important or playing on some "race card' (as if White peopl dind't like invent race cards in this country in the first place? Like really!) to express how you and your own are treated- I'm sorry if it may seem offensive or abrasive but when you get images and messges that you aren't human, aren't worthy, or aren't "enough", then you get angry. but don't take that anger as a a dismiss of you or even personal, its just anger and yeah people have a right to it. Dismissing that right just makes "us' even more angry. if you want to get rid of the polarization, that's the last thing you want to do.

    But again, thats not all Race Studies does, like with feminism it helps empower poeople by giving them information on history that they may have not gotten in high school (because I feel so good as a black person knowing tha another black person made peanut butter... I mean, I can now sleep at night), (and while some times that history is vry controversial and inaccurate and needs to be reexamine, the fact they they are studying it in the first place makes other people study it and consider it in a serious light- whethr they beliee it or not) and allows them to empower each other.

    Thats personaly what I see from such studies- its not that its perfect, and it never will be, but at times i wonder when people attack them and dismiss them ALTOGETHER, i sometimes think they attack them out of their prejudices of not knowing them or not knowing them enough. Not saying you're doing that but yeah others in this thread I am a little iffy about.

  • saywhat29
    saywhat29

    Sweetstuff,

    what you said is a very polarizing thought in Feminism, but the thing that gets me is this- how many families in tis day and AGe can afford to have just one person pay the bills? You know, being a stay-at-home mother is a privelege that many women wish they could see but don't have the chance to, so I think that's what make some angry, espcially a lot of black feminist I know beause a lot of single mothers and are not "superwomen' tryng to do it- they wish hey had help but do not and just want enough to get by.

    But again, its a interesting argument because it gets into the dynamic of relationships that exist in couples and all that, how we view couples compared t singles, and etc. To me its interesting and anoying all a once.

    *sighs* i love sociology.

  • sweetstuff
    sweetstuff

    Sweetstuff,

    what you said is a very polarizing thought in Feminism, but the thing that gets me is this- how many families in tis day and AGe can afford to have just one person pay the bills? You know, being a stay-at-home mother is a privelege that many women wish they could see but don't have the chance to, so I think that's what make some angry, espcially a lot of black feminist I know beause a lot of single mothers and are not "superwomen' tryng to do it- they wish hey had help but do not and just want enough to get by.

    But again, its a interesting argument because it gets into the dynamic of relationships that exist in couples and all that, how we view couples compared t singles, and etc. To me its interesting and anoying all a once.

    *sighs* i love sociology.

    My point about stay at home mom's was that if they can afford it, more power to them. I would respect someone more for saying, god, I wish I could, than making a snarky remark because they can't. I am a single mom, I work, I support my kids on my own, but I never look at a woman who has the situation of being able to stay home and think, yeah, lazy ass, doesn't want to work. I will openly admit I envy her in a way.

    Glad to intrigue you and annoy you all at once.

  • ness
    ness
    Your post doesn't make a lot of sense, because most feminists do acknowledge differences. You all are using too broad of a brush to paint your picture. It's rather like describing Christians using the KKK.

    of course it makes sense, its just the feminist in you being finicky :)

    at the end of the day feminism says that women can do everything and think in the same way men do. its just that our poor brains have been conditioned by patriarchy.

  • John Doe
    John Doe
    at the end of the day feminism says that women can do everything and think in the same way men do.

    You are mistaken.

  • sweetstuff
    sweetstuff

    at the end of the day feminism says that women can do everything and think in the same way men do. its just that our poor brains have been conditioned by patriarchy.

    Think like a man? No thanks. I don't want to spend my day worrying about wanting to scratch my balls, should I download porn or rent one at the video store, hey, that chick on the 4th floor is smokinnnnn hot, wonder if that guy in office two is really as big as he says, ..... you get the idea. LOL

  • John Doe
    John Doe
    wonder if that guy in office two is really as big as he says

    Uh, guys don't wonder about those sorts of things--at least I never have. Sounds like something a juvenile female would wonder about.

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