January 15, 2008 Watchtower & The One Mistake We All Made:

by t33ap80c 82 Replies latest jw friends

  • TD
    TD

    Oompa,

    The statements in 1932 and 1933 were clear and unambiguous. That the second coming of Christ and the commencement of the parousia were one and the same was one of Russell's very earliest teachings. This was set out specifically in The Object and Manner of Our Lords Return which was published in 1877. JW's have always believed this.

    The Bible Students / JW's have always believed that "Second coming of Christ" and "Commencement of the parousia" were two different terms for the same thing. This doesn't automatically have anything to do with his enthronement as king.

    Today Jehovah's Witnesses date both the commencement of Christ's presence and his enthronement as king to 1914. But It's important to remember that originally, they were two separate events. The former was dated to 1874 and the latter was dated to 1878.

    The Bible Students / JW's have not always believed that Christ's second coming / Presence coincided with his being enthroned as king. Russell believed and taught that these were two separate events.

  • t33ap80c
    t33ap80c

    Oompa,

    You had asked me "When/where exactly did WT change the date of Christ’s presence (from 1874 to 1914)?"

    I answered:

    "According to the 'Proclaimers' book the date was changed to 1914 in 1943. The footnote on page 133 explains that the change is found in their 1943 book ‘The Truth Will Make You Free.’ – See also the footnote 38 on page 22 of "Captives of a Concept."

    You said, "The footnote in the Proclaimers book does not state 1943 is when the change took place."

    Although your are correct that the footnote doesn’t state that the change of date to 1914 was made in 1943, I know that this is what the footnote means. Here is why I say this:

    The footnote is a specific reference the statement that "Russell came to be persuaded that Christ’s invisible presence had begun in 1874." After explaining some of the reasons for Russell’s flawed chronology that misled him to 1874, the footnote then says, "A clearer understanding of Biblical chronology was published in 1943, in the book, "The Truth Shall Make You Free."

    What was the "clearer understanding" about the beginning of Christ’s invisible presence that was published in that book? The footnote doesn’t tell us. But that 1943 book it refers to does. The 1973 book, "God’s’ Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached" refers to that same book and says this: "In the year 1943 the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society published the book ‘The Truth Shall Make You Free.’ It then explained how the Society’s better understanding of chronology "moved forward the end of six thousand years of man’s existence into the decade of the 1970’s. Naturally this did away with the year 1874 C.E. as the date of return of the Lord Jesus Christ and the beginning of his invisible presence or parousia." pp.209, 210

    Unfortunately the Proclaimers footnote is written in such a way that what it is saying will not be noticed by most Witnesses. And that is that the Society didn’t change the date of Jesus’ "invisible presence" from 1874 to 1914 until 1943.

    You made the point that that 1943 book is not the first time 1914 was identified as the change from 1874 to 1914. The point I make in the book is that "according to the Proclaimers book" that’s when the change was made. The Proclaimers book doesn't offer any other date earlier than 1943. And so that's the one I use in my book while acknowledging that this is "according to the Proclaimers book."

    You went on to provide evidence indicating that Rutherford first began to connect 1914 with Jesus’ presence in the 1930’s. TD has provided several references, which seem to support your contention. I tried to cover that possibility in my footnote #38 when I acknowledged the following under a special NOTE:

    NOTE: There is some evidence that Rutherford first mentioned 1914 as the beginning of Christ’s Second Coming in the 1930s. But the Proclaimers book doesn’t mention any date prior to 1943. Either way it wouldn’t make any difference because the change of date was made long after Jesus’ examination was over.

    As far as the point I'm trying to make in the book is concerned it doesn't matter if the date was changed in the 1930's or 1940's. It was changed too late. They say Jesus' exam was over in 1919. The time to pass an exam is when it is given, not 10-20 years after it is over.

    Let me know your thoughts on this.

    Don

  • oompa
    oompa

    I agree with all your points Don, I personally was just trying to find the first time the change to 1914 occurred. According to TD:

    The 1878 date for Christ's entronement was moved foreward to 1914 in the year 1920 (cf. The Watch Tower July 1, 1920 p.196)

    I have not read it yet though. Is that the first you know of?........thanks oompa

    I wish I knew the exact percentage of JW's who know it used to be 1874!

  • justhuman
    justhuman

    no mistake

  • t33ap80c
    t33ap80c

    Oompa,

    You said, "The 1878 date for Christ's entronement was moved foreward to 1914 in the year 1920.. The Watch Tower July 1, 1920 p.196). I have not read it yet though. Is that the first you know of?........thanks oompa"

    If there is an earlier date I would think that TD has it.

    Don

  • insearchoftruth
    insearchoftruth

    BTTT, this is a great thread on the selection of the BORG by Jesus in 1919......

  • hamsterbait
    hamsterbait

    Most of us remember how Jesus return invisibly was a fudamental teaching. Mouthy was DF for saying she did not believe it.

    The Proclaimers Book denies this(p136) "the Bible Students came to discern that Christ did NOT return (even invisibly ) in 1914."

    It was the P book that put me onto the 1925 fiasco.

    When Christs Return did not happen in 1873, Russell published the "Manner of Christs return". here he tries to change the return from visible to invisible, except to the faithful. (which of course is what Jesus warns "many will say ... "see he is in the interior rooms" do not go after them.") This is just saying Christ is here, but only we know about it.

    This used an argument based on an inaccurate and distorted use of the word Parousia, meaning an invisible "being alongside", which is what was taught until the WT morphed it into the current meaning, which definitely is not a return, either visible or otherwise.

    HB

  • WuzLovesDubs
    WuzLovesDubs

    Yep...they were doing CHRISTMAS AND BIRTHDAYS when Jesus CHOSE them! LOLOL!! So in DUMPING those celebrations they are SPITTING IN THE FACE of Jesus, telling HIM he was stupid in choosing them because they were part of Christendom!

    duh

  • Heaven
    Heaven

    What always fascinated me about this teaching was the invisible nature of the return of Christ (the dates were somewhat irrelevant to me as a teen at the time... again, I had a lot of issues relating to these things because of their 'ancient' nature in my mind. When they spoke of past dates I invariable used to toss them in the trash, mentally). But the audacity of the WTS to speak directly in opposition to the scriptures in the Bible spoke volumes to me.

    And... not to take anything away from what Don has presented and everyone here has contributed to because it is quite an eye opener and totally fascinating to see the old beliefs vs the newer and present beliefs... but...

    The one mistake all the JWs in my family made was that they all assumed they would receive everlasting life as a JW handing out magazines. It always confounded me how this one thing could be the main 'works' (plural) spoken about in the Bible and could be THE vehicle for their salvation.

    This is basically the reason why the JWs in my family are JWs. They want their everlasting life.

  • smiddy
    smiddy

    I loved your book Don,

    great thread

    great comments

    a pity most jw`s dont get the sense of it

    smiddy

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